Close The Suggestions Subforum For The Foreseeable Future

[Emilia Foddg]

What does this suggestion change/add/remove:​

Close the Suggestions subforum for the foreseeable future, additionally with some updated info that directs players that have something that they think might be a bug, to open bug report tickets on Discord first, which they should be doing anyway.

And in the event that CT need feedback on something or community input during the time the subforum is closed, then they could be opening CT Discussion threads as they have been, maybe also with some kind of potential Rule equivalent for rule discussion & SSL if they ever need to do something similar where they need to assess community impact of a rule change/addition - Although yes, Discord server polls are a thing that are actively used to get player feedback on rule & content changes, Content do also often leverage the subforum as a place to get community feedback, and that may also be a valid option for certain rule changes as well.

Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?:​

Funny story, actually. I myself have actually suggested a prior subforum closure for however long was needed, which was denied alongside the wonderful addition of the resource that tells us how suggestions are reviewed (I understand that this could be interpreted as sarcastic, but I do mean that, I think it's a genuinely good resource and appreciate that the time was taken to provide us with it), not long after which the subforum was closed for a brief time anyway for reasons I forget? But I recall it being something along the lines of CT needing a bit more breathing room, especially around what was the holidays at the time.

I understand the sentiment about closing and re-opening only allowing for catch-up response and it potentially causing long-term problems as people flood the subforum with suggestions on re-opening, which I do agree is a thing and didn't occur to me when I made that original suggestion - I believe there to be new factors to take into account this time around which I elaborate on in the last section, which don't mean this is any less of a concern - However my concerns are that these things weigh against each other and we may be at a point where one could potentially be outweighing the other.

So I don't know if I was the canary in the coal mine back then or if it was just coincidence, but I'm effectively volunteering myself again now. This is a re-opening of my prior suggestion on the same topic.

Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):​

• + CT could use the time that would normally be spent handling suggestions, on more practical purposes such as bug reproduction - Even just a straight-up break could be beneficial, as a result also causing:
  
  
  • + Decreased backlog bloat
    
    
  • + Lass hassle dealing with low-quality suggestions (Like mine! Hi)
    
    
• + The Community will have a time where they don't receive denials for feature s that would otherwise be considered were it not due to the current lack of resources or development interest (According to an increasing amount of recent denials)

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:​

• - Potential long-term issues with people flooding the suggestions on re-opening as mentioned above
  
  
• - The community won't be able to make suggestions with ideas they have for some period of time

Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:​

We are seeing an increasing amount of suggestion that are low quality, result in a new FAS addition (there's been a lot of those recently - Although I still greatly dislike the prohibition of SCP speaking suggestions, especially since the two that caused it were very well justifiable. Firmly downthumbered. The other recent additions have either made sense or otherwise bespeak the next point), or are denied largely because there aren't the resources to invest or developer interest in working on that thing -So it doesn't get added to the backlog either because you don't want more stuff on an already massive backlog.

So either bad ideas get shot down or the good ones can't be worked on. In that case, why have the subforum be open other than for CT/SSL deny a bunch of suggestions every other/few weeks or so? If this is the Hilbert Grand Hotel with no vacancies, why is Sisyphus allowed to show up in the lobby with the boulder? The only issue so far was that there'd be a lot of suggestions, but there's a lot of suggestions anyway. It's just meaningless. Close the subforum and then open it again at some point when you believe there to be good reason that you can actually take on some idea that we have.

Otherwise we're all just annoying each other and getting nothing done as a result.

 

[Shooxcie]

-support just because your suggestions keep getting denied doesn’t mean everyone else should lose access to suggestions

 

[PileOfScrap]

eh some points are made, i feel like currently more stuff gets added to the backlog than what is made so locking down at least content suggestions for a while could help with that a bit.

 

[Speff]

suggestions have been closed 3 times before, for multiple months. all previous times (afaik) did not raise any major issues, and instead helped content team actually work on existing stuff instead of managing new suggestions all the time.

i don't have a personal opinion on whether it should be open or closed atm, but emilia isnt doing this for any personal reasons: the current backlog is huge and with more and more unnecessary suggestions being made, it just makes everything take longer. the chance of your suggestion, once accepted, being completed within the next few months, is probably less than 20%.

so anw yea idk if it should be shut or not but both the suggestions and the dev backlogs are huge, and more suggestions dont help. i certainly wouldn't be opposed to closing this for another few months.

 

[Vxnt]

hmmmm... i think... explode....

but uhh seriously theres no real need to shut down suggestions! i assure you these do not take up as much of content team's time as you think! probably! and if they say it does then uhhh plug your ears and trust ME instead! :steamhappy:

(tl;dr closing it isnt really needed, and wont impact much either way)

 

[Emilia Foddg]

just because your suggestions keep getting denied doesn’t mean everyone else should lose access to suggestions

the current backlog is huge and with more and more unnecessary suggestions being made, it just makes everything take longer. the chance of your suggestion, once accepted, being completed within the next few months, is probably less than 20%.

so anw yea idk if it should be shut or not but both the suggestions and the dev backlogs are huge, and more suggestions dont help. i certainly wouldn't be opposed to closing this for another few months.

closing it isnt really needed, and wont impact much either way

I mean, look at some of the recently denied suggestions - There is a consistent increase in reasoning lately that there is either no development interest in certain suggestions or no available resources that would be worth investing in them, and they don't want to put them on the backlog because it would just sit there for potentially years, going stale with no-one to pick up the ticket. Hell, correct me if I'm wrong here, but IIRC there's only one mapper working on Site-65 atm, so any suggestions involving mapping changes, no matter how practical or wanted they are, are most likely going to be thrown out, because it's understandably unreasonable to just put everything on Judge.

I think there's some clear community frustration that a lot of good ideas are being denied because of that, but there can't be much done about it - But in that case, my question then is why have suggestions open at all right now? As I said, right now it's either bad ideas that the community and/or Content don't like for various reasons, or things that can't be worked on.

This isn't to say that any of the given reasoning isn't valid - Their position is completely understandable. But as a result, suggestions atm is just a revolving door of either "This would not be a good idea" or "This can't be worked on" with the occasional acceptance (And even then, I would imagine that on re-review, some of those would end up being scrapped entirely because of a lack of resources/developer interest).

And even when an accepted suggestion survives all that, there's an understandably long time until that's seen to fruition. And there's a notable vocal contingent of the community, especially for larger and/or more anticipated features, ends up occasionally badgering for when X feature will happen, especially in teaser threads and such.

CT & CN Devs are volunteers; It makes no sense to be wasting the time, effort and energy that they voluntarily put into the community, into what is ultimately a constant back-and-forth of nothing. Suggestions are a privilege, not a right; And we've been able to enjoy that for a very long time - This is in the interest of long-term community health and IMO from what I'm seeing, having that pressure lifted may be really beneficial. But without inside perspective, I or anyone outside of NL/CT/Devs can't say for sure. I would like to know if what I'm putting forward here is a genuinely good idea or if it's not needed. I'm just saying what I see - And I'm open to being wrong.

I think we can survive another subforum closure until Staff see fit to re-open it. I'd rather see the network thrive for longer if it means we can't have suggestions open for however long is necessary. Sometimes no communication is okay.

 

[Michael Dzhetnikov]

but did you ask the devs if they wanted it closed

 

[Emilia Foddg]

but did you ask the devs if they wanted it closed

Whoever ends up resolving this can ask. I don't know if this is a Content thing, an SSL thing or an NL thing. But they can check probably in much better capacity than I can, if a closure would be appreciated. That is also part of the question being asked here, too.

 

[Michael Dzhetnikov]

Whoever ends up resolving this can ask. I don't know if this is a Content thing, an SSL thing or an NL thing. But they can check probably in much better capacity than I can, if a closure would be appreciated. That is also part of the question being asked here, too.

do you know why they closed the forums the previous times and did you get any insight into how much they needed them closed?

-Support -> Neutral by the way

 

[codynkn]

- Support

My reasons are as follows:

- Low Quality suggestions
- Resource limitations
- Backlog pressure

The above will not be permanently fixed by closing the suggestions forum, it's only a temporary solution.

Also, this suggestion is basically saying 'why have the suggestions subforum up if nothing is being worked on?', but by that logic, Bug reports should be closed when they pile up, appeals should close when they are busy, and feedback should only exist when it's convenient.

Instead of closing the subforum, stricter suggestion requirements could be put into place.

 

[Yoyo]

no

 

[Tiffany Lilly]

Nah

 

[Emilia Foddg]

do you know why they closed the forums the previous times and did you get any insight into how much they needed them closed?

As I said in the OP, I don't know exactly why - All I remember for certain was that it was around the holiday season and that was related and I remember us being told that the subforum may end up being occasionally closed if deemed necessary. I'm simply opening a discussion to pose that question now while also pointing out some very pertinent recurring things as of late.

My reasons are as follows:

- Low Quality suggestions
- Resource limitations
- Backlog pressure

The above will not be permanently fixed by closing the suggestions forum, it's only a temporary solution.

...Correct? I'm not trying to push this one closure as a permanent solution to those problems. The aim is to attempt to relieve some pressure on some things that are very clearly strained at the moment, for however long is necessary.

And keeping suggestions open will just result in more suggestions denied either because they are genuinely bad or because resources can't be spared to work on them for the time being. I'm arguing that because of that, it may be more beneficial to close the subforum for now, than to keep it open.

Also, this suggestion is basically saying 'why have the suggestions subforum up if nothing is being worked on?'

???????????
This isn't a question of "nothing being worked on," that's a whole new thought - Of course things are being worked on. I have very explicitly pointed out several times that we have lately been told very frequently that there aren't any available resources or developer interest to pursue certain suggestions that would generally otherwise be accepted. That's categorically not "nothing being worked on." If anything it implies "things are being worked on to a degree that nothing can be spared to work on anything else."

That's a very pessimistic way to view the situation.

but by that logic, Bug reports should be closed when they pile up, appeals should close when they are busy, and feedback should only exist when it's convenient.

These aren't equivalent things. All of those are fundamentally different from what a feature suggestion represents. Bug reports and appeals are essential to operate the service, while suggestions are a luxury. Also, feedback already only exists when it's convenient - Polls, threads and discussions aren't created for every little change, only the major ones to gauge community impact, and with good reason.

And that all ties into them operating very differently, too.
Players need to be able to report a severe bug that massively impacts the playability of the server.
Players need to be able to appeal mistaken or potentially false moderation actions taken against them.
It's very useful for Staff to assess the impact of a major change by querying the community about it so that critical adjustments that may need to be made, can be discovered and implemented accordingly.
But players don't need to be able to suggest new features. As I said, suggestions are a privilege, and not a right.

 

[Vxnt]

I mean, look at some of the recently denied suggestions - There is a consistent increase in reasoning lately that there is either no development interest in certain suggestions or no available resources that would be worth investing in them, and they don't want to put them on the backlog because it would just sit there for potentially years, going stale with no-one to pick up the ticket. Hell, correct me if I'm wrong here, but IIRC there's only one mapper working on Site-65 atm, so any suggestions involving mapping changes, no matter how practical or wanted they are, are most likely going to be thrown out, because it's understandably unreasonable to just put everything on Judge.

I think there's some clear community frustration that a lot of good ideas are being denied because of that, but there can't be much done about it - But in that case, my question then is why have suggestions open at all right now? As I said, right now it's either bad ideas that the community and/or Content don't like for various reasons, or things that can't be worked on.

This isn't to say that any of the given reasoning isn't valid - Their position is completely understandable. But as a result, suggestions atm is just a revolving door of either "This would not be a good idea" or "This can't be worked on" with the occasional acceptance (And even then, I would imagine that on re-review, some of those would end up being scrapped entirely because of a lack of resources/developer interest).

And even when an accepted suggestion survives all that, there's an understandably long time until that's seen to fruition. And there's a notable vocal contingent of the community, especially for larger and/or more anticipated features, ends up occasionally badgering for when X feature will happen, especially in teaser threads and such.

CT & CN Devs are volunteers; It makes no sense to be wasting the time, effort and energy that they voluntarily put into the community, into what is ultimately a constant back-and-forth of nothing. Suggestions are a privilege, not a right; And we've been able to enjoy that for a very long time - This is in the interest of long-term community health and IMO from what I'm seeing, having that pressure lifted may be really beneficial. But without inside perspective, I or anyone outside of NL/CT/Devs can't say for sure. I would like to know if what I'm putting forward here is a genuinely good idea or if it's not needed. I'm just saying what I see - And I'm open to being wrong.

I think we can survive another subforum closure until Staff see fit to re-open it. I'd rather see the network thrive for longer if it means we can't have suggestions open for however long is necessary. Sometimes no communication is okay.

I mean I get your point, but there isn't a maximum time they can take to respond.. If something is more important, the suggestions will wait. It's not like its one or the other.. I'm just not really sure what the issue is here, its just a very non-existent problem.

If something isn't accepted, it's with good reason, and just because bugs are fixed and such doesn't mean people will be willing to do suggestions they weren't wanting to do in the first place..?

Still -support, but I get your intent, just think its a bit.. Silly? I guess?

 

[Emilia Foddg]

I mean I get your point, but there isn't a maximum time they can take to respond.. If something is more important, the suggestions will wait. It's not like its one or the other.. I'm just not really sure what the issue is here, its just a very non-existent problem.

Well in that case, why not just leave suggestions like this up, where there is some willingness to pursue the project in some capacity, but no resources/developer interest and it shouldn't go on the backlog.

And before anyone says subforum bloat, why not just make some kind of 'Future Revisit' flair or something, leave the thread up for people in this subforum to find and/or respond, pontentially contribute more to the idea (Especially if it's an old idea and there would need to be adjustments for newer changes), or not even in this subforum - Could also make a new subforum under this one; Where no-one can make new threads, but those threads can live there until some future point where it can be definitively decided on, with there being appropriate resources and potential developer interest, whether or not that thing is pursued.

But I imagine CT will raise either the same point about forum bloat or it being another thing to check, etc. etc.

I would absolutely back any of those solves and would even be willing to add them to the OP as alternative routes to better resolve the issue I'm seeing here, but I'm confident that this is not something that NL or Content (or Platform, since IIRC, doing stuff to the network platforms also comes under their umbrella) would okay it for reasons I've stated.

I'd also be okay with CT just not resolving Content suggestions altogether until there's available resources and developer interest to invest in a given idea. But then you've got the concern of the subforum turning into a cesspool of "lmao, this suggestion's been open for years, wtf are CT doing" type shit.