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What does this suggestion change/add/remove:
The suggestion is to make the necessary changes to the rules for 008 breaches, to allow for D-Class Type Blue (and only Type Blue, no other D-Class) to be able to cause a breach of SCP-008, on account of not only how rare a D-Class TB is, but also the likelihood of them ever making it out of D-Block and down to 008 within their lifetime, is extremely low.
First off, I am not suggesting that D-Class TB be able to cause a breach by injecting themselves. That should remain against the rules as an invalid form of 008 breach.
They should be able to do so with a hostage. My understanding is that under the current rules, they are able to deliver a vial to CI and cause a breach that way, but it would make general RP sense that they should also be able to threaten a breach by holding a hostage in the 008 CC, ala how CI are able to do so.
Currently, the rules regarding who can breach 008 and how, are restricted to F, CI and GOC - Only able to with 12 or more MTF members on, only able to inject someone of the opposite faction to cause a breach, with MC&D, SCPs & D-Class being completely ineligible. My understanding is that there's also a restriction on how often 008 can breach, as well? Not entirely sure about that one, someone can correct me on that. My point is, the current restrictions are stringent and with good reason, for balance purposes. It would be too much if any D-Class were able to cause a breach.
Of course, if TBs were allowed, then that means that D-Class as a faction, could feasibly riot with TB support and make their way to the CC with significant effort, with the TB poised to cause a breach. This of course would be somewhat equivalent to a CI 008 raid in terms of both it making sense in RP, but also in terms of feasibility. Not every 008 raid makes it to 008 and causes a breach, instead getting repelled - a co-ordinated D-Class riot would be comparable to this, maybe even less, considering that D-Class are not typically a well-organised group - They would have to reasonably co-ordinate the riot, make it through GenSec out of D-Block, through anyone they encounter in LCZ, then through E-11 in HCZ, then needing the equipment and/or time necessary to make it through the CL4 doors into the 008 CC. If at any point during their attempt, they switch to subterfuge to try and make it to 008 CC (with TB included), it would switch over to a Code 1 and the obstacles presented in that situation would have to be overcome, in order to get into a position to potentially breach 008 (and the TB needs to live through all of that regardless of how it goes, since they would be the only one able to cause the breach. It can't just be any random D-Class).
The suggestion is simple - Adjust Rule 6.5 in a way that allows D-Class TBs (again, I can only stress this enough, only TB, no other D-Class) to be able to cause an 008 breach with a hostage. Has to be either a Foundation, CI or GOC hostage - Cannot be another D-Class. Other restrictions to 008 breaches should also apply under these circumstances. As it is, the rule is written as follows, from SCP-RP Rules:
6.5 SCP-008:
6.5 SCP-008:
Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?:
Searching the suggestions forum has turned up no similar suggestions to this. The forum doesn't allow you to search "TB" and "008" individually and even together, but a search for "type blue 008" returns no 008-related suggestions regarding D-Class TBs. The likelihood of this suggestion being original is high.
Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):
Possible Negatives of the suggestion:
Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:
It's another thing for D-Class TB to do that makes sense for them to be able to do given the circumstances, between the general rarity of TB, cohesion and general capability of D-Class to properly co-ordinate a riot that would successfully make it to 008 through all obstacles with TB still alive and against all other relevant mitigating factors - This should not realistically impact server health with the given difficulty of the feat; There is no reason to expect 008 breaches left and right because suddenly D-Block TBs are able to cause them.
There are enough barriers in the way for me to believe that this is a completely reasonable ask. Like, if you say that it would encourage D-Class (non-TB) in general just start trying to breach 008 as a result of this change, then any successful attempts by them would still be invalid. We have staff for a reason. If they start saying "well we can do it because TB can," then they're just wrong and getting a FailRP warning. Like, what's the -Support here? Genuinely, please let me know, I'm curious.I guess US wouldn't like it because my understanding is that US aren't as good as dealing with 008 breaches as UK for some reason? I really can't see a reason why this isn't a reasonable change.
Some things to consider before replying:
In a Discord discussion regarding TB being able to cause an 008 breach, the following RP point of "From a prisoner's perspective, between having a chance at escaping and causing the end of the world, it would make more sense that the former would be chosen" was raised. My response was that there is a roleplay case to be made here and it can entirely depend on the prisoner's disposition. These are death-row inmates after all - It is not unreasonable for someone who might love to kill, on discovering the existence of a deadly weapon, to want to use it for that purpose.
It was also raised that the TB is decaying, actively dying and that it doesn't matter if they escape, but the knowledge of whether it's curable or not is not truly known to the D-Class, IC. Foundation Thaumatologists don't decay,CI TBs don't decay(? I don't actually know if this one is true, could someone clarify this for me?) CI TBs do apparently decay. It's reasonable to assume that IC, a D-Class TB should seek GOC/CI's assistance in trying to cure their decay (however, on the topic of IC knowledge, they are unlikely to know about GOC IC, either). However, the speed at which TB is dying may make this infeasible. To this, I posited that it's not unreasonable for someone in TB's position to deliberate between 'taking a non-guaranteed chance at fixing decay' or 'just giving up and deciding to try and take everyone else with them.'
The suggestion is to make the necessary changes to the rules for 008 breaches, to allow for D-Class Type Blue (and only Type Blue, no other D-Class) to be able to cause a breach of SCP-008, on account of not only how rare a D-Class TB is, but also the likelihood of them ever making it out of D-Block and down to 008 within their lifetime, is extremely low.
First off, I am not suggesting that D-Class TB be able to cause a breach by injecting themselves. That should remain against the rules as an invalid form of 008 breach.
They should be able to do so with a hostage. My understanding is that under the current rules, they are able to deliver a vial to CI and cause a breach that way, but it would make general RP sense that they should also be able to threaten a breach by holding a hostage in the 008 CC, ala how CI are able to do so.
Currently, the rules regarding who can breach 008 and how, are restricted to F, CI and GOC - Only able to with 12 or more MTF members on, only able to inject someone of the opposite faction to cause a breach, with MC&D, SCPs & D-Class being completely ineligible. My understanding is that there's also a restriction on how often 008 can breach, as well? Not entirely sure about that one, someone can correct me on that. My point is, the current restrictions are stringent and with good reason, for balance purposes. It would be too much if any D-Class were able to cause a breach.
Of course, if TBs were allowed, then that means that D-Class as a faction, could feasibly riot with TB support and make their way to the CC with significant effort, with the TB poised to cause a breach. This of course would be somewhat equivalent to a CI 008 raid in terms of both it making sense in RP, but also in terms of feasibility. Not every 008 raid makes it to 008 and causes a breach, instead getting repelled - a co-ordinated D-Class riot would be comparable to this, maybe even less, considering that D-Class are not typically a well-organised group - They would have to reasonably co-ordinate the riot, make it through GenSec out of D-Block, through anyone they encounter in LCZ, then through E-11 in HCZ, then needing the equipment and/or time necessary to make it through the CL4 doors into the 008 CC. If at any point during their attempt, they switch to subterfuge to try and make it to 008 CC (with TB included), it would switch over to a Code 1 and the obstacles presented in that situation would have to be overcome, in order to get into a position to potentially breach 008 (and the TB needs to live through all of that regardless of how it goes, since they would be the only one able to cause the breach. It can't just be any random D-Class).
The suggestion is simple - Adjust Rule 6.5 in a way that allows D-Class TBs (again, I can only stress this enough, only TB, no other D-Class) to be able to cause an 008 breach with a hostage. Has to be either a Foundation, CI or GOC hostage - Cannot be another D-Class. Other restrictions to 008 breaches should also apply under these circumstances. As it is, the rule is written as follows, from SCP-RP Rules:
6.5 SCP-008:
- Picking up, holding, and injecting a SCP-008 sample counts as breaching SCP-008.
- To breach SCP-008, there must be at least 12 MTF units active.
- You may only inject someone of the opposite faction to breach SCP-008.
- SCP-008 may not be breached by SCPs, Class-D, or MC&D. SCPs may not break the furthest airlock door in SCP-008s chamber, unless they are chasing someone.
6.5 SCP-008:
- Picking up, holding, and injecting a SCP-008 sample counts as breaching SCP-008.
- To breach SCP-008, there must be at least 12 MTF units active.
- You may only inject someone of the opposite faction to breach SCP-008.
- SCP-008 may not be breached by SCPs, Class-D, or MC&D. SCPs may not break the furthest airlock door in SCP-008s chamber, unless they are chasing someone.
- Class-D Type Blues are exempt from this, and may only breach SCP-008 by injecting it into a Foundation, CI or GOC hostage. A Class-D Type Blue may not inject either themselves or a Class-D hostage in order to breach SCP-008.
Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?:
Searching the suggestions forum has turned up no similar suggestions to this. The forum doesn't allow you to search "TB" and "008" individually and even together, but a search for "type blue 008" returns no 008-related suggestions regarding D-Class TBs. The likelihood of this suggestion being original is high.
Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):
- D-Class (especially TB) get another potential riot objective other than escaping the Foundation, however it requires a TB, co-ordination and for that TB to survive and make it to 008.
- Another method of creating hostage situation RP between D-Class and Foundation, that would make in-RP sense to occur.
- Possible CI raid objective - Infoleak 008 to D-Class, arm them and get them to riot all the way to 008. Lots of co-ordination and effort required to successfully pull off (still requires a TB in the first place), generally an extra thing for them to do, CI could breach 008 anyway, but if all CI die and D-Class w/ TB make it to 008, they can at least continue instead of being stopped because it's otherwise against the rules for D-Class to breach 008 (although, if the TB dies, then they have to stop anyway, plan ruined, see below).
Possible Negatives of the suggestion:
- Since this would add another valid vector for 008 breaches, this invariably raises the possibility of a 008 breach at any given time and potentially the overall frequency of them.However, there are already strict limitations on the validity of 008 breaches, as well as the already mentioned, tiny likelihood of a D-Class TB escaping D-Block, getting down to 008, with a hostage, ready to threaten a breach - The increase in breaches would be minimal at best and likely entirely negligible, compared to the current state of affairs.
- Although, this may make it easier for CI to breach 008 if they co-ordinate their efforts with D-Class TB as outlined above - But that would require a prepped CI raid to make it to D-Block and a TB to be active, even more unlikelihood to balance out the increased likelihood that CI assistance grants.
- Scenario: Rule changed, D-Class riots with TB, somehow make it to 008, TB dies in the process. D-Class plan is ruined because womp womp, non-TB can't breach 008. Ruined roleplay at best, D-Class get frustrated and just failbreach it at worst. Standard failbreach protocol applies, might be frustrating to deal with if it gets frequent, but again, TBs are rare. Even as it is now, D-Class can still make the attempt, it would just be against the rules for any of them, even TB, to cause the breach - Wouldn't stop them from trying. Sure, the rule change might incite it a bit, but why is the rule change at fault for people otherwise breaking them? People's perceptions of the rules do not change the rules themselves.
Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:
It's another thing for D-Class TB to do that makes sense for them to be able to do given the circumstances, between the general rarity of TB, cohesion and general capability of D-Class to properly co-ordinate a riot that would successfully make it to 008 through all obstacles with TB still alive and against all other relevant mitigating factors - This should not realistically impact server health with the given difficulty of the feat; There is no reason to expect 008 breaches left and right because suddenly D-Block TBs are able to cause them.
There are enough barriers in the way for me to believe that this is a completely reasonable ask. Like, if you say that it would encourage D-Class (non-TB) in general just start trying to breach 008 as a result of this change, then any successful attempts by them would still be invalid. We have staff for a reason. If they start saying "well we can do it because TB can," then they're just wrong and getting a FailRP warning. Like, what's the -Support here? Genuinely, please let me know, I'm curious.
Some things to consider before replying:
In a Discord discussion regarding TB being able to cause an 008 breach, the following RP point of "From a prisoner's perspective, between having a chance at escaping and causing the end of the world, it would make more sense that the former would be chosen" was raised. My response was that there is a roleplay case to be made here and it can entirely depend on the prisoner's disposition. These are death-row inmates after all - It is not unreasonable for someone who might love to kill, on discovering the existence of a deadly weapon, to want to use it for that purpose.
It was also raised that the TB is decaying, actively dying and that it doesn't matter if they escape, but the knowledge of whether it's curable or not is not truly known to the D-Class, IC. Foundation Thaumatologists don't decay,
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Trial Game Master
Senior Moderator
SCP-RP Staff
