Rule Suggestion 008 Rule

[Emilia Foddg]

What does this suggestion change/add/remove:​

Trial the following for at least a week:

In "6.06 SCP Specific Rules," alter SCP-008's other rules section to allow for SL+ auth for D-Class TB to be able to initiate an 008 breach - Provided this breach is not caused by injecting either themselves or a D-Class hostage. Self-injection should remain against the rules as an invalid form of 008 breach.

From:

D-Class may not directly remove a syringe from SCP-008's containment chamber with the intention of breaching it.

To something more along the lines of:

D-Class may not directly remove a syringe from SCP-008's containment chamber with the intention of breaching it. With authorisation from Server Leadership, a D-Class Type Blue may be permitted to do so.

In such situations, D-Class Type Blues may only breach SCP-008 by injecting it into a Foundation, CI or GOC hostage. A D-Class Type Blue may not inject either themselves or a D-Class hostage in order to breach SCP-008. All other normal rules regarding SCP-008 breaches still apply.

It should be stressed that as a result, D-Class should not end up rioting or escaping with the express intent to eventually cause a 008 breach. This is to serve as as a fallback in the event that D-Class riot to escape and in the interest of surviving to later escape, somehow end up being pushed towards/into HCZ as a result. In such situations, these provisions should enable 008 to be a potential option, provided that the rioting D-Class have a TB and get SL+ auth. Further adjustments to the rules may be needed to clarify this.

If it is determined that D-Class start escaping with the intention of causing an 008 breach, the trial should be considered to have failed.

Additionally, d-class wont really give a shit about the 12 MTF requirement, its happened before where d-class have breached 008 in low pop and its taken over an hour to get resolved and the entire day for staff to investigate what happened.

If this is still a concern, consider delaying it in favour of changes to 008-related logging, so that Staff can better evaluate circumstances surrounding an 008 breach and better mitigate these kinds of instances of abuse.

Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?:

Spoiler: My prior suggestion on the topic, pre-rules revamp

I originally put forward an idea along these lines almost three years ago, the intent there being to bring D-Class TB in-line with other factions hostile to the Foundation in terms of being able to breach 008 without being entirely restricted by ruleplay. In that suggestion, I was very explicitly crystal-clear about the idea that it should only be possible for the TB to be able to breach it, and not any other D-Class. I still hold the general stance I outline in that suggestion, which I will further elaborate in the last section. This suggestion was denied for:

Superadmins discussed this last night, and we agree that this change will be denied due to the fact that 008 can and often does interrupt RP on a large scale up to multiple hours at a time. 008 is something that almost always results in an RP reset, and having it strictly controlled by only allowing CI to breach it is a way to prevent a lot more 008 breaches than there are now.

After further deliberation, I agree with the general reasoning and the concern over potential disruption - But I feel this stance is somewhat overly cautious. In an attempt to remedy this, and as a significant divergence from the original suggestion (aside from this is after the rules revamp), I have added the SL+ auth requisite and statements regarding riot intentions.

Spoiler: Prior suggestion to permit all D-Class & ensuing insanity

Last year, @"Businessman" opened a far more radical suggestion asking for all D-Class to be able to breach 008 by simply removing the stipulation altogether.

This resulted in what I can only describe as the single biggest community meltdown I've seen on any suggestion, ever. It raised numerous points of discussion, all of which are relevant, and all have been addressed in the last section. This suggestion was denied for:

SCP-008 is a high risk SCP that causes significant disruption to Roleplay if there are constant breaches to the point SSL have had to moderate CI in relation to how many breaches can occur as this has harmed core gameplay loops, there is 0 logical reason in roleplay why a D-Class would release this virus as its completely antithetical to their goal of escaping the foundation, with a death chance of 99.99%, thus disallowing any chance of escape.

This would cause too much disruption and destabilisation of roleplay to allow this to be extended to D-Class outside of the fact that it doesnt make sense.

I agree with the standpoint on harm, but not about sense. This rule in its entirety is ruleplay - Justified ruleplay - But ruleplay nonetheless. Regardless, I agree on the point that this should not be extended to all D-Class. The resulting risks are simply too high to reasonably mitigate and poses too much harm to the server's gameplay loops in the form of constant breaches. However, I still hold the opinion that it's the best suggestion this subforum will ever see. It posed an excellent question that I feel was ultimately answered incorrectly, by the community and Staff both.

There is also the notable difference of how things are generally being a lot different than when both of these respective suggestions were originally fielded. I am confident that current state of both US and UK F allows them to reasonably defend against what this suggestion enables, whether it be the attempt to do so or the resulting breach from failing to do so.

Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):​

• + D-Class get another potential riot outcome - Particularly if they end up failing to escape the Foundation and end up being pushed further inwards, then Foundation as a result have to deal with the miniscule possibility of an 008 breach, rather than relying on "They can't do that because it'd be against the rules."
  
  
• + Increased parity between D-Class and factions hostile to Foundation
  
  
• + Another method of creating hostage situation RP between D-Class and Foundation
  
  
• + Possible CI raid objective
  
  
• + Reduced ruleplay
  
  
• + Knock-on effect of future RP creation
  

  Rare breaches are meant to test the Foundation, not exist in perfect control. If something goes wrong once in a while, it’s not failure, it’s a chance to learn and improve how everyone in the site handles the situation, creating RP scenarios in the future (like briefings, trainings and drills)

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:​

• - Difficult to enforce whether a riot was for the express purpose of 008 breach, rather than having to resort to it, additionally difficult to auth
  
  
• - Increased failbreaches - As a result of either D-Class becoming emboldened to attempt 008 breaches when rioting, or otherwise misinterpreting the rule change which does admittedly make 008 breaching more complex and harder to understand
  
  
• - Potential minor increase in 008 breaches
  
  
• - Abuse

Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:​

I think it's high time we re-open this discussion. Let's get some of the tedium out of the way first, by going over and addressing the wealth of past discussion, particularly what everyone's frothed at the mouth over when it comes to this (and will likely do so again regardless of what I have to say here), presented in large text so that you just look stupid if you do ignore it:

#1: "008 breaches already suck for Foundation & the server in general, this is going to be abused with more constant and frequent 008 breaches, like on UK back when we had weeks of frequent 008 breaches, resulting in an unplayable server and server health dropping off the deep end."​

Spoiler: Response

I can kind of see the concern on UK if it's Johnson or Aki, etc. Any one of the good CI TB players hopping on D-Class TB - Albeit this still completely ignores the fact that even then, from the moment they spawn in D-Block they still need to:

• Survive standard D-Class TB procedure and make it out of D-Block having started a riot that progresses outward
  
  
• End up absolutely having to go to Lower HCZ as part of the riot
  
  
• Survive basically every onsite combative responding to your riot between LCZ and LHCZ
  
  
• Obtain a hostage & SL+ auth for the breach for when negotiations fall through

Given that there are a significant amount of experienced TB players on UK, the concern itself isn't unfounded. It's just the argument becomes hyperbolic when you look at how stacked the deck is against the TB at that point. We may have basically walking legends when it comes to reality bender jobs, but no shot they are going to easily overcome every hurdle set forth to achieve an 008 breach, were this suggestion accepted.

It becomes more a point of contention if said riot was assisted by a CI raid - At that point... Fair? But you're splitting hairs - UK CI are so experienced at breaching 008 and are pretty sensible with how they handle it that I don't think it'd be that much of a problem. If anything, it could be a fun alternative to a normal 008 raid for both CI & F players (where it could basically be considered as 'another kind of 008 raid'), at least for the people directly involved with it, and up until the point that it's breached, at which it's kinda just the same as any other 008 breach. Chances are it would be considered as an alternate, if not harder form of 008 breach raid, rather than a progression on from a D-Block raid.

And my understanding of the situation between US F and US CI is that US F are the best defenders alive - They probably wouldn't even notice a difference regardless of how far anything progresses.

This change would just not make things as dire as you seem to believe it would be. I doubt you'd notice any increase in 008 breaches at all. Maybe the confirmation bias kicking in when it first happens and have an immediate thing to blame like 'Aha, I knew it, letting them be able to breach 008 was a terrible idea.'

This is just hysteria and probably a reflex resulting from the past experience of frequent 008 breaches - I don't see this creating that type of insane, blown-out-of-proportion frequency like you all seem so desperate to believe. And I was there for those frequent 008 breaches. If UK E-11 still have their list of who has what medals, check it and see who you find under the Pest Control medal. That was during that time, and funnily enough, for an 008 breach I helped cause. The reason I'm so sure about this is because I'm not only aware of the current state of the server, but because I've seen pretty much all sides of that specific time. There being no avenue for D-Class is simply needless ruleplay.

#2: "This would cause low-pop/downtime 008 breaches, at stupid times of day"​

Spoiler: Response

Not only would this need to be authed now, but the other rules for 008 breaches still need to be followed. You need the requisite amount of MTF on and you need a valid hostage.

If you think D-Class won't follow this when no Staff are on, they already follow the existing rules, which is the primary thing that stops them other than IIRC there being a pop minimum to even hack the syringe keypad in the first place. If TB being given a method through which they may breach 008 causes other D-Class to start breaking rules, the problem isn't with any rule.

#3: "This will be metagamed by TBs instantly knowing where 008 is and going straight for it"​

Spoiler: Response

If one guy rushes to the CC, not only are they not getting auth for an 008 breach, but they're also probably gonna get a warn, especially if they follow through with a blatant failbreach attempt. Even though the first thing D-Class do when getting out is going straight for 914, this is completely different as even though 914 is a core part of the D-Class gameplay loop, but 008 is so much further out of their way that you can basically ONLY be breaking rules when doing this, even with these changes. Current enforcement can handle this just fine.

But as I state in a prior suggestion, I particularly enjoy the notion that a rule already being broken constitutes a good reason to not make a change already under the assumption that the rules were being followed, anyway. Fuck it, let everyone failbreach everything. Sky's the limit when you don't give a shit

#4: "How would they get the requisite 'advanced' IC knowledge of what it is and how to use it?"​

Spoiler: Response, with prejudice

This for some reason, is the most common argument I saw against this, and simultaneously the most braindead. If you look at the big, heavy security area at the bottom of HCZ with warning signs, end up hacking your way in, getting into the room and you find syringes? You really don't need to put 2 and 2 together to be able to come to the conclusion of "the people keeping this thing locked up would really not someone getting injected with whatever's in these syringes." Like, what...? What 'knowledge' is needed here?!

I'm genuinely trying to wrap my head around this logic and I just don't see it. This line of thinking is just slop. At this point, just leave your downvote and -Support and move along.
And even IF they're blatantly metagaming or FailRPing, that's most likely gonna be caught when they try and get auth for the breach

#5: "This makes 0 sense, is against their goal of escape and doesn't make sense for them to be able to do" / "Why would they intentionally breach something perceived as world-ending and dangerous in RP?"​

Actual partial reasoning for a prior denial

Spoiler: Response

Being against their goal of escape - Yes. That's why I specify in no uncertain terms that it should be a resort and not a primary objective. All D-Class should realistically know about 008 is that if they come across its area in Atrium, it would (and should) be as a result of being pushed back further into the facility in the interest of staying alive; Seeing this thing that's locked up with tight security and if they manage to get to it, see that it's just a syringe.

They wouldn't know about its destructive effects and wouldn't have any way of knowing besides being leaked to by CI or someone else. They'd just know that this is something that's under heavy security and would probably be bad for their captors if it got out, so it would end up being a last-ditch effort to leverage breaching it to try and get out alive.

And even if they did know... These are death-row convicts. You really think they're gonna be so socially-minded as to not release the deadly zombie virus? No.

Granted for balance reasons, it should never be all D-Class that get access to this. There needs to be a compromise to allow some way of the one hostile faction to F that is specifically ruleplayed against breaching 008, to be able to do so. You can workshop it to be even more restrictive if you want, but at the end of the day, the only thing that doesn't make sense here is the fact that the rules prevent this outright. This IMO is one of the weaker arguments against this.

#6: "If a TB gets the ability to get 008, all they will need to do is just bullet freeze and inject someone."​

Spoiler: Response

1. This exact scenario without any further nuance would still be a failbreach following this suggestion's changes - Additionally, the play of just "running in, grabbing syringe, running out and jabbing the next person you see with 008" would most likely not be authed by SL+ without exceptional reasoning.
   
   
2. This series of events implies they didn't enter with a hostage, implying they would need to then further leave the CC in order to accomplish this. Usually when CI raid into 008's CC, they end up getting trapped in there and have to open negotations. The same thing would generally happen with TBs. If the TB manages to get out, this constitutes a failure to protect the CC.
   
   
3. Oh no, Bios and hazmats with Scrantons! How do I fight back against such awesome power?!

#7: The invisible ruling that D-Class are for all intents and purposes, not allowed to breach SCPs - "A D-Class must have a valid RP reason to breach an SCP"​

Real past statement by a present member of SL

Spoiler: Response

...I'm just gonna present the original exchange here, because the revelations here are still kinda mind-blowing, even after a year:

The primary goal of D-Class is to escape the facility. The only reason they can breach an SCP on their own accord is to cause a distraction while escaping.

As death row inmates, it absolutely makes sense that a hostile D-Class could be inimical enough to deliberately try to make things as painful/miserable as possible, especially for people who would be their captors.

In fact, past me in the suggestion I linked put it quite well, IMO:

In a Discord discussion regarding TB being able to cause an 008 breach, the following RP point of "From a prisoner's perspective, between having a chance at escaping and causing the end of the world, it would make more sense that the former would be chosen" was raised. My response was that there is a roleplay case to be made here and it can entirely depend on the prisoner's disposition. These are death-row inmates after all - It is not unreasonable for someone who might love to kill, on discovering the existence of a deadly weapon, to want to use it for that purpose.

D-Class do not (and IMO, should not) need "an actual reason" to breach anything. They can breach whatever they please (except 008 currently as per server rules, which again, I agree with to an extent, as established) for whatever reason they want. They are a hostile group to be kept in check and if they are not kept in check, then they will cause havoc. That is a big part of what D-Class is on the server.

Their ability to breach SCPs as you put it will require extra rule clarifications to be added to the suggestion. The current ruling does not allow for any of this with regards to breaching SCPs.

...What? What rules are currently in place that prevent D-Class from breaching SCPs? A quick readover of the current rules doesn't turn up anything that suggests D-Class can't breach SCPs. Am I interpreting this right? I feel like I may be seeing this wrong, but is the claim that a D-Class can't escape D-Block, then go to say, 173's CC, and breach it?

This is the current ruling by SL, however not explicitly stated in the rules. A D-Class must have a valid RP reason to breach an SCP e.g. they are conscripted by CI, or a single breach by themselves to distract the foundation while they escape.

Well then they can provide the valid RP reason when questioned. I agree on the idea of clamping down of things like metagaming, minging, NITRP and rampantly breaching SCPs for the express purpose of ruining roleplay - But the concept of valid RP reason is kinda vague and flexible? A lot of things can reasonably constitute a valid RP reason in most circumstances.

Like, if I breach an SCP as D-Class, get taken to a sit, asked why I breached the SCP, and respond with anything along the lines of "As a violent prisoner who was poking around the facility looking for places to hide from patrols, tools to escape, etc. I happened upon this thing that they're keeping locked up, and since I as a death-row inmate convicted of mass murder love killing people, I set it free so I could cause widespread death and destruction." and get warned for a failbreach as a result, I'm 100% taking that to a complaint.

That seems difficult to enforce, too.

...Is this just a US thing, or?

You're more than welcome to make a complaint if you feel that you were wrongfully warned in a case like this. The reasoning for each instance is considered on a case-by-case basis.
This should be the case for both servers.

What?

In case you're somehow still lost, this is just pure, hard-to-enforce ruleplay. The puzzling implication being that one of D-Class's core gameplay loops sesms to just be straight-up FailRP? I don't understand how this got glossed over in the original discussion, but this is beyond the scope of this suggestion.

The intersection here between the Staff Ruling and the suggestion, is sort of equivalent to something along the lines of a change to CI raids being denied "because CI engaging in combat with Foundation in general is considered RDM." So I don't know how to reconcile this, as this ruling is its own issue. I just mostly don't understand how this even happened.

#8: "This strays too far into ruleplay instead of roleplay."​

Spoiler: Response

I mean, the suggestion is asking to loosen existing ruleplay. Yes, it's more complex in that you have to fulfil all these specific conditions for balances' sake before being able to breach the SCP - But as things stand right now, the rule is that you just can't do it at all. As I state, this brings D-Class into parity with other hostile factions' capabilities against the Foundation.

I for one, would love a ruleplay-less solution, but given that 008 is 008, you kinda can't. And also, this is to do with an SCP breach - You can roleplay around it as I quoted in the positives, but in it at its core, there's no roleplay. Almost every imposed restriction on D-Class is consistently rule-based. In which case, you should aim for what has the most sensible allowances over not. With that in mind, I would argue that having there being zero circumstances whatsoever is less favourable. "These specific hostile people don't get to do the thing because we said so" hardly constitutes good reasoning.

#9: "In the past, D-Class have failbreached 008 in low pop, with the resulting breach taking over an hour to get resolved, and the entire day for Staff to investigate what happened."​

Spoiler: Response

This exchange took place as part of the 'Allow all D-Class to breach 008' suggestion, but despite this being only for TBs, is relevant here, too

Additionally, d-class wont really give a shit about the 12 MTF requirement, its happened before where d-class have breached 008 in low pop and its taken over an hour to get resolved and the entire day for staff to investigate what happened.

then the issue is enforcement, not the idea of the breach itself. If the 12-MTF rule is being broken, the solution is clearer logging, better communication, or staff warnings, not a complete ban on 008 breaches from Class-D individuals.

Staff arent on 24/7. USA has has problems with lack of staff for a while and this is simply something from lack of manpower. UK staff hop on sometimes to help out but they cannot be relied on.

Logs are already very clear and precise, there is a limit on what you can do and you have to go up the chain of command, gather opinions and a lot of things before making a decision. Additionally, staff like to wait to bring people into sits so we can talk to them and get their side of the story and they arent always online.

That’s true, no server has 24/7 staff coverage, including this on. But the solution to that could be limiting breaches to high-pop rounds (e.g. 12+ MTF online, and certain hours of the day where more staff members are present), not banning entire RP scenarios. If staff presence is inconsistent, it makes more sense to apply those rules instead of permanently removing the option.

Admittedly, I'm not sure why I didn't interject here in the original thread, because I was with the reasoning up until the implication that an 008 breach is an RP scenario. The hostage situation leading up to it, sure, but the breach itself... No. 008 being out and thriving is anti-roleplay, through and through. You're not taking it any other direction.

I think a better approach would just be about why they don't get any circumstance whatsoever. The known stance on this is that it'd just be 'too disruptive', but under the conditions I've laid out in the suggestion, I don't think it would be.

In the context of people doing this shit where they straight up failbreach and cause problems, yeah. I can agree with needing more mitigation before considering opening anything up, even slightly.

#10: Regarding UK CI's OOC agreement to limit 008 raids​

Spoiler: Response

That's just good management. And of course, US CI aren't even getting close to breaching 008 because they're not good enough at the game, skill issue lmao.

I don't see how it's relevant to the infinitesimally small chance that a D-Class TB, after a player wins the RNG lottery to flag on, and within their drastically short lifetime, gets past F's D-Block TB protocol, gets into HCZ, gets a hostage, gets into 008, and gets SL+ approval for a breach.

What more do you need?

EDIT: I should clarify if it wasn't obvious, thata D-Block raid with the intent of progressing into an 008 raid, is still an 008 raid. You're not curveballing anything by approaching the 008 raid a different way

#11: "If you want less ruleplay, why not just let D-Class RDM each other for the most minor of reasons, they have no reason to be allied, since they don't know each other."​

Spoiler: Response

...Genuinely a great idea, why is this not the case. Why the fuck are we giving out warnings for death row inmates fucking stabbing each other, get real
That's a topic for another suggestion, though

SCP-008 is dangerous, but that’s exactly what makes it valuable in RP. Fear and chaos are what drive high-stakes, memorable, and fun situations. The unpredictability of events is what keeps players engaged and gives life to the server.
Some people argue that Class-D wouldn’t “intentionally” breach a world-ending threat. But this assumes all Class-D act rationally, which is simply not true, either in lore or in roleplay. Many D-Class are unstable, desperate, mentally broken, or even unaware of what SCP-008 really is. Not every action needs to follow strict logic, it just needs to make sense in character.
Others say such a breach would be “extreme” or “uncontrollable”. But the server already has systems and rules in place to manage powerful SCPs. SCP-008 isn’t some unstoppable apocalypse, it’s dangerous, yes, but it can be contained with coordination. That’s the point. And that’s where the fun comes in.
Also, let’s be honest breaching SCP-008 as a D-Class would be extremely difficult. The rule requiring at least 12 MTF members online ensures that these breaches only happen during high-pop rounds, where there’s enough personal to handle the situation. On top of that, a Class-D would still have to:

• Escape D-Block,
• Navigate into LHCZ,
• Hack through multiple clearance levels (CL4 Bio and CL5),
• And finally reach the containment chamber to trigger a breach.

This is not something that will happen easily or often. But when it does, it would be amaizing, "a Class-D managed to breach 008 wow".

Honestly going over these discussions, the biggest thing I see from people is this weird "the sky is falling" type assertion that if this were to happen, 008 would be breached every other femtosecond and the servers explode in some kind of comical fireball.

CI have a week cooldown on breaching 008 for a reason, if D Class can breach it that means there could be infinite amount of 008 breaches ie multiple per day or whatever and at that point you may as well remove the cooldown from CI breaching it - which would just be stupid for the gameplay loop

I get where you're coming from, but that logic assumes D-Class breaches would happen frequently, which isn't realistic given the conditions being proposed.

CI have a cooldown because they have tools, coordination, and access that make breaching 008 much easier and more repeatable. D-Class, on the other hand, would logicly have a much harder time.

The idea that it would lead to "infinite breaches" just doesn't hold up. It would be a rare, high-effort situation that happens maybe once a few mounth , if that, and would still be subject to punishment if abused.

...Like, looking back over all this is... What? Most of the time, when I'm able to escape as a D-Class, I just get shot and die.

Can someone genuinely teach me how to be good at game so I can just leave D-Block at will and go breach SCPs please
It's all so boiled down to the point that it makes me look sane. I get that people will act on the petty desire just to failbreach 008 to piss people off. Hell, I wanna do it. But like... How? Help, I am bad at game. Please raise your hands and lend me your strength at the videogame so I can go get an MRDM ban like some kind of failbreach spirit bomb

Pls

Regardless, It's another thing for D-Class TB to do that makes sense for them to be able to do given the circumstances, between:

• The general rarity of TB
  
  
• Cohesion and general capability of D-Class to properly co-ordinate a riot that would successfully make it to 008 through all obstacles with TB still alive and against all other relevant mitigating factors
  
  
• The need for 12+ MTF to be on
  
  
• The need for them to have a valid hostage to inject
  
  
• PLUS the added need of getting SL+ auth

This should not realistically impact server health with the given difficulty of the feat; There is no reason to expect 008 breaches left and right because suddenly D-Block TBs are able to cause them.

There are once again enough barriers in the way for me to believe that this is a completely reasonable ask. Like, if you say that it would encourage D-Class (non-TB) in general just start trying to breach 008 as a result of this change, then any successful attempts by them would still be invalid. We have staff for a reason. If they start saying "well we can do it because TB can," then they're just wrong and getting a FailRP warning, maybe even a ban. I still don't know what the -Support is here other than the idea that everyone seems to have that "this would make 008 breaches constant and frequent, rocks fall, we all die." Low-pop/early morning breaches aren't even realistically possible because IIRC, the keypad that raises the 008 syringes to be accessed has a population minimum requirement in order to be hacked, and alerts E-11 when hacked.

This time around, I think there's some merit to the idea of needing SL+ auth to do this - And that comes in the form of accountability. CI as a group can be held accountable if they start getting wacky with 008 raids. In a case where being allowed to do so is grey, it's harder to hold random individuals to account. But this idea incorporates a sort of compromise similar to TreasonRP, wherein if a rando tries to do TreasonRP without SL auth, they can be more easily punished than if auth wasn't needed. Granted, a D-Class TB breaching 008 is a little more different and definitely holds more weight/ramifications than an instance of TreasonRP, but the general principle still translates pretty well IMO. If the final barrier is SL, then keeping a lid on this where necessary is much easier than if not - If need be, SL can just not auth D-Class TB breaching 008 for whatever period. But generally, if SL looks at an individual 008 auth request from a D-Class TB, they can investigate the situation and see if it's appropriate to auth the breach at that time, or if there's some shenanigans going on. I believe this is an effective compromise.

There's also the angle of TB's decay, the fact that they're actively dying and that it doesn't matter if they escape, but the knowledge of whether it's curable or not is not truly known to the D-Class, IC. Foundation Thaumatologists don't decay, but CI TBs do decay - It's reasonable to assume that IC, a D-Class TB should seek GOC/CI's assistance in trying to cure their decay (however, on the topic of IC knowledge, they are unlikely to know about GOC IC, either). However, the speed at which TB is dying may make this infeasible. To this, I posited that it's not unreasonable for someone in TB's position to deliberate between 'taking a non-guaranteed chance at fixing decay' or 'just giving up and deciding to try and take everyone else with them.'

...Do you all just wanna come over to the world where 008 doesn't breach as often as you seem to think it does? I can arrange transport, but you'll need to pay your own fares Maybe we should have a third SCP-RP server exclusively for people who aren't good at the game IDK anymore. Like, I feel like I've made the case for this as clear as possible. If you still won't have it, then at least put it in the FAS, because this is probably gonna come up once a year or so

 

[jse_markfelix2]

This entire suggestion is a fever dream. Never seen a Type Blue even get as far as 008, regarding the metagame thing, on the UK server all signs relating to 008 were removed out of HCZ, so you really wouldn't think of that area to be anything special. I doubt this will really have much of an affect on anything, maybe something that happens once in a blue moon +support I guess

 

[Evil]

if a d class manage to get into 008 mtf need to reconsider there skill choices

 

[Bill Nye The Guy]

+support

i love your specific clause stating "This change will not cause increased 008 breaches, with the sole exception of Johnson J Marauder"

#5: "This makes 0 sense, is against their goal of escape and doesn't make sense for them to be able to do" / "Why would they intentionally breach something perceived as world-ending and dangerous in RP?"

always hated this talking point: if you are not only a death row convict BUT a secret organisation also stripped you of all of your memories, imprisoned you, made you test on deadly monsters, and killed your friends, wouldn't you want some revenge? i never understood people who say "it makes 0 sense" as revenge is an entirely reasonable response ESPECIALLY for d class - hell, if you genuinely believe escape is impossible and death inevitable, why not go out with a bang and cause as much chaos as you can to be remembered?

In case you're somehow still lost, this is just pure, hard-to-enforce ruleplay.

they're calling me your biggest glazer the way i ferverently agree with everything you're saying

 

[Jello_on_mello]

Anotha Certifed Emillia Foddg™ Classic


I Hate all suggestions that would make 008 easier to breach ...

but you know what
+ Huge Support

Make it so anyone can attempt a 008 breach with SL approval
(I hope to see a MCND steal and auction off 008 someday )

 

[JasonTheCheesyGuy]

Another quality Emilia suggestion peeps!

But, good lord, this would make such a niche situation.

 

[.teddy]

get a job

 

[Average member podidski]

get a job

but i have job and i still play server (most on usa side)

 

[Dennid]

I ain't reading all that so I say no

 

[Avery Snow]

+Support

This is a compromise I can agree to.
(Honestly if A D-Class manages to make it to 008 during regular pop. That's on foundation security at that point.)

 

[bmart1n7]

Not exactly going to give support, though I'll take an 008 Breach as long as they aren't too common.

Was more so going to comment on this statement:

"And my understanding of the situation between US F and US CI is that US F are the best defenders alive - They probably wouldn't even notice a difference regardless of how far anything progresses..."

The main thing you have to know about U.S. CI is that they are crafty. They'll look for any advantage they can get, no matter how minimal. Often their biggest moments come from DCs, using Class-F CL4 to circumvent Bio Doors, or even destroying GOC-Foundation Relations. Just Yesterday they sent a DC along with a raiding party to take advantage of the fact Foundation wouldn't immediately suspect a DC, and managed to steal a Tank. They also happen to utilize a decent amout of Chems too.

Offense can be pretty good too. It's just that they're spotted pretty early by SOP, who send an advance notice for the rest of the site. That allows for easier defense for Foundation. It's true that some of the best combatives on U.S. are MTFs, most being A/O, who are in site constantly, making brutal response times. Add the hordes of Experienced GSD and it's no wonder why you might think that.

Both Foundation and CI try to get any advantages they can get. It's just that CI are usually the first ones to find it.

 

[Emilia Foddg]

Just Yesterday they sent a DC along with a raiding party to take advantage of the fact Foundation wouldn't immediately suspect a DC, and managed to steal a Tank. They also happen to utilize a decent amout of Chems too.

Offense can be pretty good too. It's just that they're spotted pretty early by SOP, who send an advance notice for the rest of the site. That allows for easier defense for Foundation. It's true that some of the best combatives on U.S. are MTFs, most being A/O, who are in site constantly, making brutal response times. Add the hordes of Experienced GSD and it's no wonder why you might think that.

Both Foundation and CI try to get any advantages they can get. It's just that CI are usually the first ones to find it.

That's wild. I admittedly haven't been deep in the weeds of UK's F combative loop in a while, but when I was an E-11 CPT, the standard thing to do with CI raids was always to sweep, ID & Kant check both during and after raids, especially if one is suspected, meaning that on UK, DC + MR means that the DC is basically almost always caught and CI basically waste their DC raid if they do that.

I don't know if that's relaxed any in the past couple years or so, but I appreciate the perspective. I do know that a lot of departments/regiments will sometimes even do cross-server trainings and what usually comes out of that is that they end up learning the complement to each other's weaknesses, to some degree. I think that opening up more craftiness potential while keeping it reasonably restrained could encourage more of that form of groups trying to learn from the other server's counterpart if they're very obviously missing something in what they're doing.

This makes me think what other specific tricks CI would be able to do if it weren't for one little thing preventing it, whether it be somewhere server content falls short or a rule restriction. I think that if there's counterplay, then CI should absolutely enabled in this manner.

In the specific case of 008, I definitely agree it shouldn't be too easy/exploitable. Suggestions are generally a guideline and the premise here is to try and open an avenue with enough restraint to the point that Staff feel comfortable with allowing that change in some form, as opposed to just outright disallowing the thing entirely. I can see disallowing the thing entirely as a method of completely stamping out playing cat-and-mouse with whatever new strat people find to try and breach 008 - I feel like requiring SL+ auth for a D-Class TB to breach it will cover that too. I don't know that there's any trick there to exploit.

 

[Sule Goodman]

- Support

Why would a D class TB have any more "power" to get able to breach 008. D class should have at most 2 goals and only 2
1. Escape
2. Be a willing test rat

Dont think a D class (espescailly one thats physically gonna fall apart in 30 minutes ish), would be focused on breaching 008

 

[Emilia Foddg]

Why would a D class TB have any more "power" to get able to breach 008.

Because it doesn't make sense for D-Class overall not to have an avenue to breach 008, being prevented only by pure ruleplay. This isn't anything to do with them as a reality bender, but rather the rareness of being able to get on the job and the limited lifespan it has to limit any potential frequency - In the specific context of 'why TB', it's less about 'sense' and more about gameplay balance, because with 008, not taking enough precautions does mean an unacceptable increase in frequency. On the other hand, it makes comparatively little sense how among what potential problems D-Class could ever possibly cause if the Foundation ever lose their hold on them, 008 can just never be one under any circumstances whatsoever. Among other conditions and considerations, this is probably the best compromise possible. Create a circumstance that is nigh impossible to meet.

D class should have at most 2 goals and only 2
1. Escape
2. Be a willing test rat

It's not a goal. It's a resort.

Dont think a D class (espescailly one thats physically gonna fall apart in 30 minutes ish), would be focused on breaching 008

Not a focus. A possibility, should circumstances align. Currently if those circumstances even come close to aligning, it wouldn't be pursuable as a potential threat - Currently if a D-Block riot ever managed to push back against GSD and such enough to be able to actually escape, maybe by even taking advantage of some other ongoing breach, but couldn't push into/through EZ and ended up needing to go further into the site, down into HCZ, if they were to go toward/into 008, they'd basically be trapped and can't do anything there, not out of any shortcoming in gameplay, but just because "they're not allowed." Even in this already extremely niche situation, this would at least potentially allow them to at the very least generate some RP around threatening to breach 008, similar to when CI hold it.

 

[Speff]

@grok summarize

nah actually read the whole thing and its pretty interesting i mostly agree, but also even UK players know that US CI sucks and we have like 1 008 breach every 2 weeks or so, and D-class are 4x the force they are on US server than on UK server, so this would def help the amount of 008 breaches

additionally with emilia fucking throwing hands with every dissenting opinion lmfao, going and reading a lot of the responses, then even the original post i couldnt help but notice (and i want to address this split before i talk about the suggestion specifically)

there are 16 UK -SUPPORTS TO 3 UK +SUPPORTS, and 8 US +SUPPORTS TO 2 US +SUPPORTS in the previous d-class breaching 008 suggestion. thats a 16%/84% split vs a 80%/20% split. AND KEEP IN MIND UK IS THE SERVER WITH THE WEAKER D-CLASS.

(ty chatgpt)
yes im well aware (have to say this before that one admin replies to me) "erm rules have to apply to both servers", but it's quite clear that UK have very strong sentiment in any suggestions against 008 breaches compared to the US server, and theres a few issues with all this:

1. firstly its evident that different groups in each server are different. thats an undisputable fact. UK CI trumps US CI, and US D-class are much more powerful than UK D-class. that's why there were certain restrictions put in place for certain server's groups to control the amount of chaos (get it cuz chaos insurgency haha sorry ill kms) they cause, and thats why things like the banning of mass-terms (...) seem as common sense to the UK, but the majority of US players were absolutely enraged by it. but the issue arises when this then spreads onto ideas like the breaching of 008, and suddenly because of one group's excellence in breaching 008, now the US server's insanely large d-class playerbase has to suffer?

2. secondly hey maybe just accept the fact that us server likes 008 breaches more (partially because of reasons stated above)? theres a reason you'll often see a "fuck i missed a 008 breach?" in us discord channels whenever one happens

Anyways apart from all that there's kinda just common sense but a lot of implications. Of course the biggest issue is how the TB will find about 008, but you could make the same case about every SCP. But if you want to talk specifically 008, if the TB is breaching SCPs and it sees a dimly lit hallway with a suspicious looking airlock and/or signage, as well as the CL4 door, surely they would use common sense to deduce that it would be very dangerous to breach. Secondly, again, 008 is one of the most heavily guarded SCPs, and no comms message provokes a bigger response than "hacking 008". As said by others, SCP-008 is way harder to hack than any other SCP, and if D-class somehow are able to bypass every measure to hack it, surely they deserve to breach it.

also this is all coming from a 3-4 year GENSEC main, but even from my side, if a D-class TB is somehow able to breach 008, let them breach it ffs. TBs are our #1 target at all times whenever they are alive, and if we fail in doing so we deserve the 008 breach. this isnt some "d-class/ci cope suggestion", this is kinda just common sense.

and a previous point, and maybe the most important one, again:
D-class TB is available once every few hours or so. Half of D-class TBs are stupid, and a Quarter of TBs are either going up against prime GSD (as prime as prime GSD can be), or don't have enough support D-class to help them. That already makes the "amount of 008 breaches" (given every non-stupid and illiterate D-class TB breaches 008 lmao), to an even more miniscule amount. This suggestion won't "change the nature of 008 breaches", this will just give escaped D-class TB an outlet to their anger towards the SCP foundation if escaping is not a solid option.

anyways as @grok summarized

"The concern that this would cause endless 008 breaches is overstated, as server cultures differ significantly between UK and US. The issue with this discussion is that people are treating both servers as if they function identically when they clearly don't. UK and US have different group dynamics, different attitudes towards 008, and different levels of concern about breaches. On top of that, the proposed change only affects an already rare role that has to overcome significant obstacles to even reach 008. TBs are uncommon, often die early, are heavily targeted by security, and still need to get through one of the most defended areas on the server. If a D-Class TB somehow manages all of that, the resulting breach is more likely to be the product of successful gameplay than a problem that needs to be prevented by an OOC restriction."