Denied Adding one extra rule about guarding SCPs

[Bill Nye The Guy]

What does this suggestion change/add/remove:

Adding a clause to the rules that's something along the lines of:
"An SCP may only be actively guarded if there is resonable cause to do so."

Spoiler: What counts as 'Resonable Cause'?

Acceptable examples of resonable cause:
Heavily guarding an SCP upon hearing CI is approaching it
Lightly guarding a Safe/Euclid SCP if it is being tested
Heavily guarding a Keter SCP that is being tested
Lightly guarding an SCP like 914 upon hearing a D-class has escaped and is heading that direction
Heavily guarding an SCPs containment chamber if a HVT is inside, eg Site Command or Site Admin
And so on.
Guarding an SCP because it is at risk of being breached, e.g.: an SCP is approaching to breach it
Guarding an SCP because there's a known risk of it being used/breached (eg code 2, lots of escaped d-class, it's resonable to go and guard 914 because of that)

Unacceptable examples of resonable cause:
Guarding an SCP because there was a CI raid recently
Guarding an SCP because it was recently used
Guarding an SCP when there is nobody inside
Guarding an SCP when there is no known risk of it being breached or used

This is to help stop people (mainly E11) from camping SCPs like 914 with no real reason to do so. It'd help balance out the server, and make interesting situations (like escapee d-class) a little more common. I've not seen an escaped & disguised d-class during primetime in MONTHS, just as an example.

It would also make certain SCP breaches more enjoyable for the player themselves, from my experience there are always 2 biohazard specialists positioned outside of 008/049/096 meaning any of their breaches are immediately invalidated, alongside making potential 008 raids much more annoying to do.

I'd go so far to say it's light metagame that one of the ONLY SCPs to be guarded is 914, an SCP which is (ideally) mainly used by people who might harm them.

Keep in mind this is the current situation on the UK server, I don't know about the US and if things are different there

Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):
Makes for more interesting situations to happen again
Makes situations where there's a code 1 outside of a CI DC or MR more common
Makes D-class mains happy they can escape outside of low pop times
Would make some SCP breaches more enjoyable with a small element of surprise
Very easy to implement, just add one clause to the rules and add the examples to rule clarifications
CI or D-class are rewarded for being stealthy by getting to use or breach a high value SCP

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:
A change like this might not be seen well by MTF/Site staff mains
Could throw off the balance for a bit since people haven't experienced D-class escapees in so long they might not be used to the change
Could make things a little too easy for rival factions
People could just see this all as a skill issue and not want it implemented

Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:
Be honest with yourself, when was the last 3 times you've seen CI or D-class actually, successfully use 914 and cause any significant damage?

I'm seeing people complain about private 914 usage, and how it throws off the balance. I also see people complain about how D-class is underpowered and needs a buff.
The main problem I want to address is how 914 is very, very easy to use for foundation staff, but very difficult for anybody else to use. This is because of constant guards inside of the containment chamber making it impossible for anybody to use unless MTF is understaffed, or the server is dead at that moment.

With VIP levels, let's say an E11 dies inside of 914. A (generous) 10 second respawn later, he takes an elevator up to 914 and gets back in maybe 30 seconds. Enough for barely one disguise. This doesn't include any of his friends at HCZ CP who can run over (as it's been called on teamspeak), who can run over to 914 in about 20 seconds.
It's a HERCULEAN TASK to successfully get into 914 without negligence or inactivity from MTF groups. The 1:1 function is wholly underutilised as a result, and we almost never see successful use of it unless you're very lucky and nobody is guarding it.
It invalidates any level of skill in escaping, covertly getting to the SCP, and opening it up purely because 20 people can bumrush in at a moment's notice.

As much as I hate sounding like sam hartley I hope the post isn't -supported into hell by F mains (and I admit I am a CI main, but it just goes to show how these kinds of raids never work, and I can tell you that from experience).

Be honest with yourself, when was the last 3 times you've seen CI or D-class actually, successfully use 914 and cause any significant damage?


If you like the suggestion also remember to vote for it

Spoiler: Responses to arguments people have already made:

It's failrp to run to 914 as a d-class in the first place!
No rule against it, and justifiable in RP. If you've escaped d-block you likely have a keycard (or interacted with someone who has a keycard), and read up about the SCP. That's one example.

It's unrealistic!
Liberties should be taken for the sake of balance. All I want is a non-zero amount of D-class escapes outside of 2am.

It's supposed to be hard for D-class to escape!
It is! You have to get out of D-block undetected, and get to 914 without being seen by anyone. It takes a lot of skill and luck! For all of that to be invalidated by an E-11 playing clash royale inside of 914s CC is just unfun and actually impossible to counter.

 

[Darren]

+support when i was in e-11 i found it quite op we had insta panic buttons we sat in 914 we hear the door we spam our bind even if the dclass over power the 3 Mtf inside with LMGs and extremely good guns with field kits chems and shit etc

and get to 914 mtf response team by the time dclass get into 914 its already being overwatched by a mtf firing line

 

[MrSiens]

-Support
"it makes it harder for Dclass / CI" is not a valid reason to change this in my eyes.
This would be a significant step into "ruleplay" over roleplay.

But speaking of metagame, i would probably consider the fact dclass instantly rush to an SCP they do not even know about to use it very proficiently a sort of metagame too.

E-11 guarding it seems perfectly reasonable due to the incredible history of abuse 914 has, and the fact you are attempting to appeal this means that this is both sensible and effective.

"More D-class escapes" is not a universally good thing, its like asking for more breaches because "SCPs will like it"

 

[Tobi Sallow]

- Support

This already exists to an extent, not to the extent you're asking for, but it already exists. During low pop unless there's an active Code 1 (or has been several recently), then it can be argued as failrp to just randomly go guard 914.

And during high pop, this rule is actual counter to server health. Because it would essentially punish people for playing E-11, and say that they were now only literally allowed to be border patrol. Which is not what the regiment is for.

And trying to make guarding 914 because there was recently a CI raid failrp is absolutely nonsensical. No. If CI raid, there has to be a risk of consequences. CI shouldn't just get to raid/Infil and either fail and just try again in a little bit or succeed and come back in a little bit. CI should be having to think, to plan, to strategize. And taking into account how recently they raided is an important part of that. CI raid's shouldn't be braindead pray and sprays.
Which to give credit, they haven't been recently, and thus there's been less need to guard 914.

Aside from that, I think that the bigger issue we're running in to is that E-11 have to kind of be on high alert on a regular basis because of the frequency of combat on the UK server recently. D-class not normally getting to disguise has very little to do with people guarding 914 all the time. Its just simply that during peak time, there are more people who can call it out, or catch the D-class before they get there. (As long as the d-class abide by fearrp)

And to your final point, during peak times, they almost never should. CI already have DC's, and if the DC plays it right, they can keep hidden in HCZ hacking out scp's for a couple of hours. A d-class is severely under-equipped compared to all of CI, because they are supposed to be. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, It is supposed to be difficult for D-class to escape.
And while I'm at it D-class knowing how to use 914 without ever being told to in their present life is failrp anyway. Y'know, in case anyone forgot.

 

[Bill Nye The Guy]

But speaking of metagame, i would probably consider the fact dclass instantly rush to an SCP they do not even know about to use it very proficiently a sort of metagame too.

D-class knowing how to use 914 without ever being told to in their present life is failrp anyway.

Not a rule. It can always be justified IC and nobody (to my knowledge) has ever been punished as a d-class for going to 914. If they have a CL2 to get inside, it can be justified they went to a PC and read up on the document, now knowing they could potentially change what their clothes look like
It is also the only thing that d-class can do outside of their cell is go to 914, what else do you expect them to do???

E-11 guarding it seems perfectly reasonable due to the incredible history of abuse 914 has, and the fact you are attempting to appeal this means that this is both sensible and effective.

"More D-class escapes" is not a universally good thing, its like asking for more breaches because "SCPs will like it"

Liberties should be taken for the sake of balance. When I say "More D-class escapes" I mean non-zero amounts of D-class escapes. As I said in the suggestion, really think about the last three times you've ever seen 914 successfully used. It's wholly underutilised by everybody (except the people who propblock it and get free guns out of it, but that's another topic) and it's a shame that people can't experience escaping unless it's 2AM.

it would essentially punish people for playing E-11

Be honest with me again, what do you do standing inside of 914s observation room for 2 hours that you see as more fun than the alternatives? If anything, I see standing in place for hours on end only to make one SCP impossible to use a punishment for your own enjoyment and the enjoyment of others.

And trying to make guarding 914 because there was recently a CI raid failrp is absolutely nonsensical. No.

Fair enough, I'll remove that part.

D-class not normally getting to disguise has very little to do with people guarding 914 all the time. Its just simply that during peak time, there are more people who can call it out, or catch the D-class before they get there.

The only way for D-class to get a disguise is to go to 914. People guarding 914 all the time stops them from getting disguises. During peak time, yeah you're right there's more people to call it out or catch them, so we should reward their ability to get there undetected by letting them use the SCP (which as I've mentioned is wholly underutilised for this exact reason) and get out.

It is supposed to be difficult for D-class to escape.

Yeah, it's difficult for them to escape. Once they do it shouldn't be impossible for them to get a disguise because somebody instantly calls a panic button and guns them down upon entering the CC.

 

[Naffen]

-support quite frankly a skill issue

 

[Tobi Sallow]

Not a rule. It can always be justified IC and nobody (to my knowledge) has ever been punished as a d-class for going to 914. If they have a CL2 to get inside, it can be justified they went to a PC and read up on the document, now knowing they could potentially change what their clothes look like
It is also the only thing that d-class can do outside of their cell is go to 914, what else do you expect them to do???

It is a rule, NLR exists. 914 has not been used to test on humans on the UK server since I joined the server some odd 6 - 7 months ago. And a lot of files got wiped off of the pc. As far as I'm aware, there is not a single file in those computers that describes how to use 914. And there's not a single person on the foundation just casually going around describing what happens to humans who go in to 914 on the 1:1 setting. They don't talk about it because the tests don't happen. So yes. It is a rule. NLR is a rule. Stop giving this kind of b.s. favoritism to D-class just because they wanna all use 914.

And to answer your question, Escape. They only need a cl3 to escape. Getting a disguise from a machine they shouldn't know how to use, to sneak in to HCZ to hack out a bunch of scp's they shouldn't know about is a whole ton of failrp. I know it sucks, and we all know the reason staff don't punish D-class for it is because using 914 is considered a part of the D-class gameplay loop. But even if it is, they doesn't give people the right to break nlr to do so. Make a suggestion to change the gameplay loop so that D-class either do already know about 914, or that escaping puts them at 914, so it can be justified for them to checking it out, instead of just finding random excuses and lies to abuse getting away with breaking NLR.

Be honest with me again, what do you do standing inside of 914s observation room for 2 hours that you see as more fun than the alternatives? If anything, I see standing in place for hours on end only to make one SCP impossible to use a punishment for your own enjoyment and the enjoyment of others.

I'm not E-11, for one, and for two. They don't stand there for hours. Again, as I stated before, the frequency of E-11 being there is not because they're assigned to guard it 24/7, its the current influx of combat. This rule change your suggesting would not affect the frequency of E-11 being at 914.

The only way for D-class to get a disguise is to go to 914. People guarding 914 all the time stops them from getting disguises. During peak time, yeah you're right there's more people to call it out or catch them, so we should reward their ability to get there undetected by letting them use the SCP (which as I've mentioned is wholly underutilised for this exact reason) and get out.

Honestly, you are right that 914 is the only way for D-class to get a disguise, which is why it shouldn't be the only way for them to get a disguise. Or, as I suggested above, alter the escape system so that it spits them out right at 914 instead of them having to brute force going to 914 for a disguise, instead of just getting a cl3 and actually escape.

D-class should be attempting to test more, riot less. And D-class should be attempting to escape more, breach scp's less. We already have CI on the server, we don't need D-class also acting like CI.

 

[Darren]

It is a rule, NLR exists. 914 has not been used to test on humans on the UK server since I joined the server some odd 6 - 7 months ago. And a lot of files got wiped off of the pc. As far as I'm aware, there is not a single file in those computers that describes how to use 914. And there's not a single person on the foundation just casually going around describing what happens to humans who go in to 914 on the 1:1 setting. They don't talk about it because the tests don't happen. So yes. It is a rule. NLR is a rule. Stop giving this kind of b.s. favoritism to D-class just because they wanna all use 914

As a exec myself no cap i only ever saw 1 biological 914 test and that was when i was a SR researcher trying to apply for exec that long ago

 

[Bill Nye The Guy]

It is a rule, NLR exists. 914 has not been used to test on humans on the UK server since I joined the server some odd 6 - 7 months ago. And a lot of files got wiped off of the pc. As far as I'm aware, there is not a single file in those computers that describes how to use 914. And there's not a single person on the foundation just casually going around describing what happens to humans who go in to 914 on the 1:1 setting. They don't talk about it because the tests don't happen. So yes. It is a rule. NLR is a rule. Stop giving this kind of b.s. favoritism to D-class just because they wanna all use 914.

this guy upon reading the file for SCP 914:

They only need a cl3 to escape.

ok yeah just run through LCZ (past medical section), through EZ (ISD passing through, Nu-7 potential checkpoints), through floor 2 (intel agents going to surface, Nu7 doing POIs), and onto surface (nu7 on watchtowers). It's that easy fr!!

its the current influx of combat.

sorry how does the 'current influx of combat' affect this though? i dont really see what you're getting at here

D-class should be attempting to test more, riot less.

doesn't mean escape should be near impossible

D-class should be attempting to escape more, breach scp's less.

i dont think you understand how hard it is to simply walk out of the facility WITHOUT a disguise

 

[Tobi Sallow]

this guy upon reading the file for SCP 914:

Hey Bill, buddy, pal, friend, amigo, compadre

The. Wiki. Isn't. In. The. Server.

Don't come at me with your clown actin attitude. Not gonna try to have a genuine discussion if you're just gonna act goofy.

 

[Kw1ll]

is this not technically loitering under IA rules

 

[Ramuh]

-Support
Guarding an SCP because you know it's going to breach soon is meta & doing it should result in punishment, aside from that I'm against this suggestion(Although I am an MTF main, so I am biased against it). It makes absolutely no sense to NOT guard 914 when D-Class & even regular personnel are constantly trying to use/abuse it. If an SCP is constantly targetted by a hostile GOI & other individuals, why wouldn't the foundation station people there?? The thing about guarding 914 if there was a recent CI raid is also just goofy imo, sometimes a few CI linger after the main forces are gone & try to use 914, it makes perfect sense to sit & guard it because of that.

As for "Be honest with yourself when was the last 3 times you've seen CI or D-class actually, successfully use 914 and cause any significant damage?", I have seen it multiple times in the past month.
- Filip has retrieved multiple CL4 docs & placed them in dblock & much more using 914 disguises
- Hypnoz was a fake GSD SGT & killed multiple GenSec & MTF in dblock without being caught initially
- not sure ab his name but a CI got into dblock w/ a 914 disguise & started dropping fucking freedoms & shit(Cause a long riot)

 

[Bill Nye The Guy]

guarding 914 if there was a recent CI raid is also just goofy imo,

yea removed that from it

- Filip has retrieved multiple CL4 docs & placed them in dblock & much more using 914 disguises
- Hypnoz was a fake GSD SGT & killed multiple GenSec & MTF in dblock without being caught initially
- not sure ab his name but a CI got into dblock w/ a 914 disguise & started dropping fucking freedoms & shit(Cause a long riot)

like i said i'm not sure about the situation in the US server but props to these guys for managing to do it

 

[Bill Nye The Guy]

The. Wiki. Isn't. In. The. Server.

If we took your logic that the 914 file isn't on the server, then NOBODY would know how to use it because there is no file detailing how it works. i think it's silly to only be able to use SCP files that are ON THE SERVER because half of the SCPs aren't logged on the computers. Hell, 7722, 8854, TYPE-GREEN, 409 (i could go on), none of them are on the wiki nor are they on the server's computer network and yet we still know who they are, what they do, and so on. you can't really use this as a justification

 

[Tobi Sallow]

If we took your logic that the 914 file isn't on the server, then NOBODY would know how to use it because there is no file detailing how it works. i think it's silly to only be able to use SCP files that are ON THE SERVER because half of the SCPs aren't logged on the computers. Hell, 7722, 8854, TYPE-GREEN, 409 (i could go on), none of them are on the wiki nor are they on the server's computer network and yet we still know who they are, what they do, and so on. you can't really use this as a justification

Just to make sure everyone can see this. You're claiming that d-class are allowed to know about 914 because they have access to the wiki?

Okay, cool. Just checking.

 

[Bill Nye The Guy]

Just to make sure everyone can see this. You're claiming that d-class are allowed to know about 914 because they have access to the wiki?

the d-class gets a keycard and escapes with the keycard
he hides inside of 173s containment chamber (which he opened with a keycard) and logs into their computer with a keycard
with this keycard (level 2) he has the correct clearance level to browse their case files, looking at what's on site he realises he can open the door to SCP 914 with his keycard
woah! scp 914 (which he has access to with his level 2 keycard) can change his clothes! no way!! he goes there and opens the door (with his level 2 keycard) and using the knowledge he's gained from reading up the case file on the computer (which he logged onto and read SCP 914 on with his keycard) he then opens up 914s door and is gunned down, alongside his keycard

did i mention he had a level 2 keycard that let him log onto a computer which he (in rp) reads up the files of 914 on?

anyway, this is besides the main point of the suggestion

 

[Evil]

D-class knowing how to use 914 without ever being told to in their present life is failrp anyway.

It has been clarify by US staff that d class knows what and where 914 is before and d class can always say that they were tested on it or they heard people telling other people about it and where it is location because d class are never amnestic and in most cases survive test thus they would start getting a layout of the facility, and if a staff member is saying otherwise either they are dumb or its not enforce at all.

with that out of the way I will be -supporting this due to 4 reason
1. Obviously foundation would at this point be having guards their due to multiple report of d class attempting to use or use 914 to get disguises
2. CI have been reported of using 914
3. Some foundation personnel have abuse 914 personnel gain. (one time it got so bad that gensec had about 10 freedoms)
4. reality bender update d class go brrrrr.

 

[Oasis]

D-class should be attempting to test more, riot less. And D-class should be attempting to escape more, breach scp's less. We already have CI on the server, we don't need D-class also acting like CI.

testing as a class d is boring as shit let's be honest, all tests are nowadays are walk somewhere, get credited, die, rinse and repeat

the rare interesting test on let's say 008, 682, 106 etc is a change of pace but still flawed as most often they're either interviews (researcher could've done it themselves) or sample tests (either die or risk it so some guy can make NHU and profit off your work)

 

[John Iceland]

It is a rule, NLR exists. 914 has not been used to test on humans on the UK server since I joined the server some odd 6 - 7 months ago. And a lot of files got wiped off of the pc. As far as I'm aware, there is not a single file in those computers that describes how to use 914. And there's not a single person on the foundation just casually going around describing what happens to humans who go in to 914 on the 1:1 setting. They don't talk about it because the tests don't happen. So yes. It is a rule. NLR is a rule. Stop giving this kind of b.s. favoritism to D-class just because they wanna all use 914.

And to answer your question, Escape. They only need a cl3 to escape. Getting a disguise from a machine they shouldn't know how to use, to sneak in to HCZ to hack out a bunch of scp's they shouldn't know about is a whole ton of failrp. I know it sucks, and we all know the reason staff don't punish D-class for it is because using 914 is considered a part of the D-class gameplay loop. But even if it is, they doesn't give people the right to break nlr to do so. Make a suggestion to change the gameplay loop so that D-class either do already know about 914, or that escaping puts them at 914, so it can be justified for them to checking it out, instead of just finding random excuses and lies to abuse getting away with breaking NLR.

This actually isnt true, As cloak said, its a common misconception that you dont know ANYTHING, it can be assumed that they've tested on it previously or something like that, it isnt against the rules.

 

[Mirage]

-Support
As much as I don’t like pulling the skill issue card this honestly seems like the problem here.