Class-F Rule Amendment

[Sylveon]

What does this suggestion change/add/remove:
Simply, this suggestion opens the idea to change the following rule...
"2.8 Brainwashing - You may brainwash players when they are kidnapped and in a controlled RP scenario. You may not brainwash inside a base that is being raided. Brainwashed players cannot brainwash others. Brainwashing must be utilized by using the appropriate amnestic."

to

"2.8 Brainwashing - You may brainwash players when they are kidnapped and in a controlled RP scenario. Brainwashed players cannot brainwash others. Brainwashing must be utilized by using the appropriate amnestic."

Simply removes the ruling in regards to Class-Fing in an enemies base.
I am not against the idea that there would be a Limit for how many you can Class-F in a facility, however I don't 100% feel its needed due to the fact Class-F is expensive. AMX-22 and Class-E is tedious to make, and requires considerable effort to produce.

Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?:
No, this suggestion hasn't popped up before.

Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):
- Permits a more practical approach to utilizing the new hardcoded Class-F, as it is physically produced and placed inside injection vials.
- Opens more controlled scenarios for CI, GOC, and DEA during Deep Cover infiltrations, in which instead of wasting the DC and getting a capture out of the base, you can utilize your Class-F so long as your not in a combative situation.
- Risk reward system, as Class-F is by far the most expensive chemical to make, you put yourself in a risky situation using it inside the enemy base, as the chemical injection gun is slow, loud, and obnoxious if the person moves. Making it difficult for a solo DC to class-f some one.
- Promotes a more unique RP interaction, in which specifically CI DC's can get a more direct asset during their deep cover mission, and involve some one in their roleplay directly, be it some one to maintain a disguise off of, or to help move around the facility.

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:
- Easier Access to Biometric Levels, assuming the keycard isn't stripped before the Class-Fing.
- Better On the Spot access to an extra gun with keycards.

Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:
Overall, this rule was added to control the old way of Class-Fing people, which involved a /me and a roll. With the introduction of the sampling system, this ruling makes no sense due to the fact that Class-F is now hard coded. You make it, and inject some one with it, which overall means there is material loss involved. Lets say your injecting some one and you get caught, then thats game over man.
It just overall opens more rp avenues for all parties to be freed from this weird ruling.

 

[Niox]

+Support

 

[Guinea]

One thing, I feel that it needs to be in a medical area for it to have 100% effect, if there should be some form of risk (death, subject going brain num, etc) as you could easily fear RP the first person you see, inject within 10 seconds and have a mindless slave at your side

 

[Zen]

+Support
More brainwashing RP, hell yeah. We don't get it enough, and it's one of the few actually interesting things CI can do.

 

[Pupper]

+Support
I would give CI a liter of Class F if they raided just to brainwash everyone they saw

 

[Ogre]

+Support

 

[moonyguru]

+support

 

[Joris Kilotoviz/London]

-Suport

Ci DCs on their way to kidnap every Exec online:

But seriously though. I do not believe that this would be a good addition

For one, you mentioned that it would add a risk V reward situation. But there already is a risk V reward where they have to be brought out of their base and taken to your own. That balances how useful class F can be with how risky it is to use it.

Secondly. You appear to have a misunderstanding of how loud the chem injector is. If someone is far away enough from others to actually be kidnapped, then no one is likely to hear the chem injection noise.

This would only really benefit the surface GOIs, as their bases are small enough that it is generally easier to hear the injector, but it would certainly not benefit DEA.

Overall, while I can see why you might have wanted this as a QoL change for DCs. But I don't think that it is a good idea

 

[KingOfCommon]

+Support

 

[Bill Nye The Guy]

This used to be how the brainwashing rule was, they must've changed it like a year ago now
+support
TL;DR:
Back when this used to be allowed Deepcovers had a lot more freedom in objectives, and the deep cover experience was more interesting.
Nobody really brainwashes anymore aside from A-1 turning kidnapped Juggernauts into Gensec RRT (lol)
This is because the effort of extracting somebody, bringing them to surface, brainwashing them, then putting them BACK in base without being detected is just too hard to do.

Ci DCs on their way to kidnap every Exec online:

what would CI do with Class F'ed Execs lmao

For one, you mentioned that it would add a risk V reward situation. But there already is a risk V reward where they have to be brought out of their base and taken to your own. That balances how useful class F can be with how risky it is to use it.

The risk is wasting time producing an extremely expensive chemical and consuming it to make one person temporarily switch teams. Brainwashing used to just be a roll (which admittedly was too easy to abuse).

Even then, there were many more DC possibilities when this was how the rules worked. You could brainwash an IA to un-arrest an CI who are brought to him. You could try to brainwash the Site Director to let Deep-Covers perform tests unsupervised. Etc Etc Etc.

Since the change to brainwashing only being allowed in bases, all of these things have genuinely not happened in over a year. The amount of effort and noise you make extracting a SINGLE person out of Foundation Base is not worth it.

Just bringing a cuffed person (usually high clearance) all the way to surface will never go unseen. Somebody will see their name and call out on comms something along the lines of "I saw a man in a suit cuffed and being taken to surface, where is the Site Advisor?" Shortly followed by: "Site Advisor Bill has been kidnapped, assume compromised if you see him outside of CI base!"

This would only really benefit the surface GOIs, as their bases are small enough that it is generally easier to hear the injector, but it would certainly not benefit DEA.

surface GOIs are already strapped for content as it's regularly told that the Foundation Jobs are the main focus of the server. That being said, one more thing that can benefit GOC and CI by adding new and interesting possibilities in raids and DCs isn't a bad thing, especially when people complain that CI just shoots mindlessly and GOC just sits in base

 

[Joris Kilotoviz/London]

This used to be how the brainwashing rule was, they must've changed it like a year ago now
+support
TL;DR:
Back when this used to be allowed Deepcovers had a lot more freedom in objectives, and the deep cover experience was more interesting.
Nobody really brainwashes anymore aside from A-1 turning kidnapped Juggernauts into Gensec RRT (lol)
This is because the effort of extracting somebody, bringing them to surface, brainwashing them, then putting them BACK in base without being detected is just too hard to do.


what would CI do with Class F'ed Execs lmao

The risk is wasting time producing an extremely expensive chemical and consuming it to make one person temporarily switch teams. Brainwashing used to just be a roll (which admittedly was too easy to abuse).

Even then, there were many more DC possibilities when this was how the rules worked. You could brainwash an IA to un-arrest an CI who are brought to him. You could try to brainwash the Site Director to let Deep-Covers perform tests unsupervised. Etc Etc Etc.

Since the change to brainwashing only being allowed in bases, all of these things have genuinely not happened in over a year. The amount of effort and noise you make extracting a SINGLE person out of Foundation Base is not worth it.

Just bringing a cuffed person (usually high clearance) all the way to surface will never go unseen. Somebody will see their name and call out on comms something along the lines of "I saw a man in a suit cuffed and being taken to surface, where is the Site Advisor?" Shortly followed by: "Site Advisor Bill has been kidnapped, assume compromised if you see him outside of CI base!"

surface GOIs are already strapped for content as it's regularly told that the Foundation Jobs are the main focus of the server. That being said, one more thing that can benefit GOC and CI by adding new and interesting possibilities in raids and DCs isn't a bad thing, especially when people complain that CI just shoots mindlessly and GOC just sits in base

Nah bro, I can speak from experience that it is not difficult for most DCs to kidnap someone to surface
Just ask Darby how many times he's been kidnapped from Medbay of all places

 

[Bill Nye The Guy]

Nah bro, I can speak from experience that it is not difficult for most DCs to kidnap someone to surface

Even if this is the case, getting them to surface UNDETECTED is a whole other story. If your aim is to brainwash this NEEDS to be the case.

If your aim is to brainwash and send them back into the facility all it takes is one person saying "I saw XXX job get kidnapped they're taking him to surface!" to completely ruin the entire point of brainwashing somebody because they now know that person is compromised. You've done DCs, surely you understand this right?

If a CI member has been kidnapped, for example, the first thing I'd hope to see in comms is "XX is kidnapped, assume compromised unless we make a deal; AOS in base"

 

[Joris Kilotoviz/London]

Again my point is, with Class F so much chaos can be caused

Like 008 breaches, which majorly disrupt RP, would be way more common as DCs would only need to hack the airlock pressure panel

So that is why getting someone to surface undetected is meant to be the risk/reward of using Class F. Having it allowed to be done in others base's would not be a risk V reward

 

[Sylveon]

Again my point is, with Class F so much chaos can be caused

Like 008 breaches, which majorly disrupt RP, would be way more common as DCs would only need to hack the airlock pressure panel

So that is why getting someone to surface undetected is meant to be the risk/reward of using Class F. Having it allowed to be done in others base's would not be a risk V reward

As much as this will make it easier to Get a CL4 to Breach 008, it won't be over powered levels of broken. CI roughly get CL4's out with around a 80% success rate, and sometimes even undetected, Either it being a Surface Job or just a lucky exfil. All this will mean, is CI will have more options for them without having to like, throw away a full DC to Class-F some one.

 

[Zen]

I feel like if 008 breaches specifically are a concern of happening too much, there could be rules limiting just that (which there already are somewhat). The few events involving brainwashing that I've seen or been involved with have been really interesting, and it gives a lot of opportunity to change things up and introduce new RP elements, while also allowing a lot of opportunity for the targets, their handlers, and the people around the target to RP in interesting ways.

As long as breaches are sensibly limited as a separate concern, brainwashing itself being easier would just be fun and introduce more RP for most people. I'd love to see more of that kind of thing, as currently all CI seem to do is raid, do short term bad thing, run away on repeat, with no real longer-term RP most of the time that isn't like "how do we ruin GOC-F relations?"

 

[Niox]

Just ask Darby how many times he's been kidnapped from Medbay of all places

me when US and UK differences

 

[Bill Nye The Guy]

Like 008 breaches, which majorly disrupt RP, would be way more common as DCs would only need to hack the airlock pressure panel

at least on the UK server we heavily restrict the amount of 008 breaches we do and punish anybody who does one without approval from multiple COs

 

[Sylveon]

I feel like if 008 breaches specifically are a concern of happening too much, there could be rules limiting just that (which there already are somewhat). The few events involving brainwashing that I've seen or been involved with have been really interesting, and it gives a lot of opportunity to change things up and introduce new RP elements, while also allowing a lot of opportunity for the targets, their handlers, and the people around the target to RP in interesting ways.

As long as breaches are sensibly limited as a separate concern, brainwashing itself being easier would just be fun and introduce more RP for most people. I'd love to see more of that kind of thing, as currently all CI seem to do is raid, do short term bad thing, run away on repeat, with no real longer-term RP most of the time that isn't like "how do we ruin GOC-F relations?"

In 008 instences, most people forget you HAVE to hack out the Airlock Cycle in order to get a syringe out, as NHU and 106 break the syringe if you use them with it.

So even with Class-Fing being easier, 008 will still require you to loudly hack one CL5 in 008, and with E-11 spawning right above it, it should theoretically be difficult.

 

[Emilia Foddg]

honestly, i always read this as a way for factions to just powergame and prevent someone from class F'ing someone who was captured by raiding their base - which would have to force the Class F to stop as per this rule, which seems kinda dumb

didn't think about it in a way of entering another faction and Class F'ing someone there.

...sure.
+Support

 

[Max Henry]

+Support