Denied D-Class Riot System Rework

[Shark]

What does this suggestion change/add/remove:
Reworking of the D-Class Riot System

Currently a lot of roleplay leaders are frustrated with the current state of the riot system recently added. The system seems to be heavily weighted in favour of D-Class and as such ruin the experience of the few people who choose to mainly play GENSEC. Before the riot system, D-Class could already regularly and easily access decent weapons and kill for higher tier weapons and cards. They were able to door fault doors, hold the outer D-Block area for an hour, and generally be a nuisance during breaches or raids. While this was annoying to combat, these were exceptional cases that felt special both as D-Class or as GENSEC. However, with some of the recent changes, the power has shifted completely into the D-Class's hands. Easy access to assault rifles, PDWs, magnums, and keycards at a massively reduced scrap while GENSEC's only benefit is they spawn with a sub-par SMG is frankly absurd.

Reworking the Riot System to claw back some of the scrap reductions, weapon additions, etc would help immensely with allowing GENSEC to have a more fair fight would massively improve their experience on the server.

I'm not great at giving exact values for suggestions but some examples would be:
Remove CL2 scrap cost reduction (Change from 200 > 500 during riots). They already can kill people more easily for cards, you don't need to make it easier for them to get out. Let them kill people and earn their freedom.
Remove sticky grenades from the shop or make them more expensive. Cadets would be the only ones to be one-shot by sticky grenades, everyone else has enough armor to tank it so they can get to a medic. This item specifically targets the newer players on the server and makes their experience worse.
Removal of the upcoming scrap cost reductions. It is already easy for people to gather large quantities of scrap (I have close to ~21k and I barely play D-class), a .44 magnum which is an incredibly effective weapon should not be 120 scrap.

This section may be update with more ideas but at the current moment this is what I've come up with. I'm worried about the upcoming changes to allow D-Class to spawn with armor during the riots effectively making them deal with people with 100/50, 250/50, and 150/50 on spawn.

Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?:
While it was discussed and changes were suggested informally, no forum suggestions were made to my knowledge.

Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):
Improve new player experience when playing GENSEC
Decrease some of the overall havoc of the site to allow for proper roleplay to be conducted
Shift some of the balance back so personnel are fighting prisoners with weapons rather than effectively CI 2: Electric Boogaloo

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:
Make D-Class underpowered and not viable if balance changes are not done right
Worsen new player experience when playing D-Class (it's pretty fun for a new player to be able to easily access weapons and shoot whoever they'd like during a riot.)

Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:

The new player experience is actively be hampered by the shift in balance in favour of D-Class and disrupts the roleplay initiated by roleplay leaders. While I play SCP-RP for the combat (hence why I'm the Dep. Director a combative department), many of my fellow RP leaders are frustrated with the amount of chaos on the site actively disrupting any plans they had for roleplay involving other personnel like medical. We already have to deal with CI and automated SCP breaches that disrupt roleplay but making riots apart of that ecosystem would just give no time for anything to happen. The few players that dedicate their time on GENSEC and mainly play GENSEC roles, their experiences are being worsened by changes like these and I don't want GENSEC to go into hiding because their CL1-CL3 personnel get frustrated while dealing with D-Class who out-gun, out-run, and even have higher clearance cards then they do.

While I understand some players may not be supportive of this change citing reworking/nerfs would result in a system that is seldom used which I don't disagree with, if proper testing and feedback is done a proper system that is fair for both sides can be made.

 

[Zen]

~Neutral
We haven't had the system for more than 24 hours, I don't think. I also haven't seen anything like this on UK server except a single riot that got out of hand that was immediately shut down when MTF were called and a sweep was done.

Leave it for at least a few days before demanding sweeping changes when it's not this huge a thing yet. It's not exactly launch 082 right now.

 

[Brewer 2.0 / Celtic]

This system also ruins RP for research aswell due to their heavily reliant on D-Class for testing (not that people test anymore cause huehue chemical gwind uwu but there are still a few gems within research) and this just incentivises D-Class to only fuck about n ignore the RP side of the server cause only shooting people is the approach now.

I agree. Hopefully the new Site-9 (if it comes) would allow for a more RP oriented D-Block experience. Right now, D-Block is just genocide RP.

 

[Jonas Enry]

the riot actually makes riots, riots, plus im sure they will continue to implement balance changes

I think the recent round of scrap changes is a little too much in the dclasses favour as 50 scrap for a pistol seems low and th .44 at 120 aswell. imo go inbetween the old and current prices

 

[emilsnat]

+support
Riot system needs to be nerfed or made so that riots are harder to do without it being active

 

[Zen]

+support
Riot system needs to be nerfed or made so that riots are harder to do without it being active

I like the idea that D-class would find it very difficult to riot meaningfully without an active riot event. Not sure how it currently is, but having it so D-class couldn't get any weapons at all that were more than a knife outside of riots, and maybe keycards would be available but very expensive? I'll have to flag on D-class and look at what it's like right now. Would encourage D-class to do testing more between riots as they would be limited otherwise on escape attempts, and then riots become a more contained but interesting event, rather than "you can riot normally, but you can riot with even better guns at certain times"

 

[holymilk]

I like the idea that D-class would find it very difficult to riot meaningfully without an active riot event. Not sure how it currently is, but having it so D-class couldn't get any weapons at all that were more than a knife outside of riots, and maybe keycards would be available but very expensive? I'll have to flag on D-class and look at what it's like right now. Would encourage D-class to do testing more between riots as they would be limited otherwise on escape attempts, and then riots become a more contained but interesting event, rather than "you can riot normally, but you can riot with even better guns at certain times"

That would be so lame. Gensec already gets their hands held by other departments all the time, with their loadouts being overkill for D class like 1 shot snipers, freedoms, and ethics who loosen restrictions to make D class easier to kill lmao. They just gotta cope and go along with the changes.

 

[Zen]

That would be so lame. Gensec already gets their hands held by other departments all the time, with their loadouts being overkill for D class like 1 shot snipers, freedoms, and ethics who loosen restrictions to make D class easier to kill lmao. They just gotta cope and go along with the changes.

Literally nobody spawns with a Freedom. Mass term is only ever authorised in the event of a mass breakout that has lasted a while. Ethics are the ones putting that rule in place in the first place, they and GSD could simply choose to get rid of the three warnings rule and anything else like that, if they wanted to.

 

[Shark]

the riot actually makes riots, riots, plus im sure they will continue to implement balance changes

I agree, riots should be riots but ATM it's balanced heavily in the D-Class's favor. I was told by SSL to make a suggestion rather than discuss these changes in discord so I'm doing it.

I mean it's like 20 guys with some armor, knifes, and a sprinkle of guns vs like 50 people with full armor and guns
Dclass also have to run through 2 kill hallways to get out of dblock so theyre at an innate disadvantage.

You're not wrong but most smart D-Class just hold outer D-Block and kill farm effectively just making it a siege raid. If they sweep it's easy to re-arm due to the riot reducing the scrap cost and you'll be able to spawn with armor and potentially the brute/scout class.

-support
walking onto catwalk or the checkpoint section for Dblock and getting snuck 20x isn't reason for a nerf. They have no armor and die in like 2 headshots its not that difficult.
Use better tactics instead of ww1 human wave sieges for dblock

They'll be able to spawn with 50 armor soon and ontop of this sweeps rarely matter if you're able to easily resupply in less than 30 seconds.

-support
I believe people are overreacting especially since GSD sort of has to do their job for once, as well if researchers want to test they have to go in a sufficient amount of time before a riot starts. I would actually argue that it keeps people doing their jobs and not making the game a just "AFK Simulator" as most call it

I would agree but GSD are filled with mostly newer players, if you balance D-Class/GENSEC like GENSEC is the strongest best players on the planet that's just wishful thinking. In reality they're out-gunned and D-Class have higher EHP than most GENSEC.

 

[Shark]

~Neutral
We haven't had the system for more than 24 hours, I don't think. I also haven't seen anything like this on UK server except a single riot that got out of hand that was immediately shut down when MTF were called and a sweep was done.

Leave it for at least a few days before demanding sweeping changes when it's not this huge a thing yet. It's not exactly launch 082 right now.

I'm glad the UK isn't going to shit but speaking for US server we've had a 4 hour riot first day of the changes and now there's pending (now probably live changes) it's going to make it worse. I understand in theory UK and USA have effectively the same server but we have vastly different ecosystems and as a result some of the changes implemented that could be good for UK would be detrimental for US.

- Support
Most points have been mentioned above, however:
- Riots are expensive (requiring quests and lots of scrap)
- MTF can be called to help
- Riots are rareish, only one every few hours (rarer than breaches by far)

Some of the quests themselves, infact, encourage proper roleplay, such as requiring D-Class to attend tests.

I'll be frank, 99% of tests aren't proper roleplay and most D-Class (at least that I've encountered) encourage the researchers to do fast tests so they can get credit ASAP and if they don't they resist and attempt to break out. Riots may be rare but they last a while, I'm glad they reduced the time for riots but ATM we've had a four hour long riot of USA first day of the changes. MTF have other things to do, I'm concerned about this stacking with raids/breaches because in isolation it rarely leaves D-Block.

-support the new riot system has not lead to any sort of significant increase in d-class escaping from d-block, nor has it lead to some sort of "unfair disadvantage".

Gensec are far better equipped than anything that d-class could get their hands on (except maybe the sticky grenade), where they have shields, map advantages where d-class are confined to an open room and gensec can sit in their little corners. The riot system brings a way more fair system that d-class can take advantage of when they're practically always at a disadvantage.

While yes, a CL3 GENSEC is on average more well equipped, the CL2/CL1 GENSEC jobs are at a massive disadvantage due to their mediocre weaponry along with low spawning armor that can't be easily replenished. During a long riot tables can be turned and outer D-Block can be turned into a warzone that can't easily be pushed in if at all. D-Class have at least several ways to get into outer D-Block, GENSEC have one.

-support

Gensec already have the means to combat D class this just makes them have to play a bit smarter.

This is just wishful thinking and chalking up badly balanced features to "people need to play better" is just silly.

i'm ok with everything except this:

i don't play much d-class and i only have a few thousand scrap - but i do like to occasionally go play d-class; and i plan on suggesting something regarding d-class that would make me more interested in playing more d-class. i find large quantities of scrap just a general slog to grab; i don't mind not doing cost reductions for weapons, but i feel that keycards are a bit expensive, especially since can often get one, then just immediately die when you shouldn't, because gensec are minges

This suggestion was made with my personal experience in mind both as a D-Class and as GENSEC, if you have a different experience then I hope it's taken into account if changes are made about this. IMO, if you want 50 scrap guns and spawning with 100/50 minimum for 20 minutes is a lot and scrap can be gathered pretty easily within 10 minutes and you can job swap to abuse riots when they do occur.

 

[FrostByte]

-Support

D-Class riots are extremely easy to handle if they're just managed by someone competent. Just to get a Riot, you need to kill 75 foundation members, do 75 tests, craft 80 items, and pay 8000 scrap. Then the riot lasts for 20 or 30 minutes tops before it reverts back to normal and you need to do all the quests again. And no one is obligated to listen to the D-Class when they try to rush tests. Just ignore them, and if they dont comply, don't credit them.

When riots do happen, literally all of DEA, Security/SRU/SCU, Nu7, E11, A-1, O-1, Combat Medics, and even Internal Affairs respond to it with completely free weapons and infinite ammo, plus unique equipment given to each department with (normally) full armor PLUS advanced weapons like Augers, Nitro, and Nerve Gas (Yes the Ethics Committee has authed this for a riot before). D-Class do not stand any chance of escaping even with this new riot system unless the Foundation is truly just incompetent or overwhelmed by multiple breaches and raids. Just because D-Class now sometimes are a challenge to face doesn't mean they should be nerfed again so they can get steamrolled by the Foundation in seconds every time they try to do anything fun for themselves.

And I know you say it's silly but if the Foundation can't handle a riot it really is a them issue. If a riot has gotten bad, Site Administration should call MTF in, steamroll them with an organized breach, and just keep doing back to back sweeps until the riot is over or just camp their asses. Some E-11 would stay back to protect 914 and LCZs Delta Wing. And just like that, the riot is dead. There are situations where riots can get real bad when combined with breaches and raids, and that's the point. But alone? They can be handled pretty simply. And yes Cadets are meant to be weak, they're the second job you can ever become in the server just by playing for 15 minutes. Cadets are not the only force you can use to fight a riot.

If this was an actually serious roleplay server, I'd be inclined to agree with nerfing D-Class from this. But it's not. Everyone plays very casually and most of the departments in this server aren't even whitelisted so anyone can join them without any quality assurance. Staff don't enforce roleplay rules like mixing, nobody plays a character, and most of the events this server has are just "hehe look 682 has babies now" or just modelling a bunch of admins as Lethal Company characters and running around doing absolutely nothing before ending the event.

 

[Emilia Foddg]

-Support

D-Class riots are extremely easy to handle if they're just managed by someone competent. Just to get a Riot, you need to kill 75 foundation members, do 75 tests, craft 80 items, and pay 8000 scrap. Then the riot lasts for 20 or 30 minutes tops before it reverts back to normal and you need to do all the quests again. And no one is obligated to listen to the D-Class when they try to rush tests. Just ignore them, and if they dont comply, don't credit them.

When riots do happen, literally all of DEA, Security/SRU/SCU, Nu7, E11, A-1, O-1, Combat Medics, and even Internal Affairs respond to it with completely free weapons and infinite ammo, plus unique equipment given to each department with (normally) full armor PLUS advanced weapons like Augers, Nitro, and Nerve Gas (Yes the Ethics Committee has authed this for a riot before). D-Class do not stand any chance of escaping even with this new riot system unless the Foundation is truly just incompetent or overwhelmed by multiple breaches and raids. Just because D-Class now sometimes are a challenge to face doesn't mean they should be nerfed again so they can get steamrolled by the Foundation in seconds every time they try to do anything fun for themselves.

And I know you say it's silly but if the Foundation can't handle a riot it really is a them issue. If a riot has gotten bad, Site Administration should call MTF in, steamroll them with an organized breach, and just keep doing back to back sweeps until the riot is over or just camp their asses. Some E-11 would stay back to protect 914 and LCZs Delta Wing. And just like that, the riot is dead. There are situations where riots can get real bad when combined with breaches and raids, and that's the point. But alone? They can be handled pretty simply. And yes Cadets are meant to be weak, they're the second job you can ever become in the server just by playing for 15 minutes. Cadets are not the only force you can use to fight a riot.

If this was an actually serious roleplay server, I'd be inclined to agree with nerfing D-Class from this. But it's not. Everyone plays very casually and most of the departments in this server aren't even whitelisted so anyone can join them without any quality assurance. Staff don't enforce roleplay rules like mixing, nobody plays a character, and most of the events this server has are just "hehe look 682 has babies now" or just modelling a bunch of admins as Lethal Company characters and running around doing absolutely nothing before ending the event.

call ERT for d-class for real

 

[Chad]

-Support

D-Class riots are extremely easy to handle if they're just managed by someone competent. Just to get a Riot, you need to kill 75 foundation members, do 75 tests, craft 80 items, and pay 8000 scrap. Then the riot lasts for 20 or 30 minutes tops before it reverts back to normal and you need to do all the quests again. And no one is obligated to listen to the D-Class when they try to rush tests. Just ignore them, and if they dont comply, don't credit them.

When riots do happen, literally all of DEA, Security/SRU/SCU, Nu7, E11, A-1, O-1, Combat Medics, and even Internal Affairs respond to it with completely free weapons and infinite ammo, plus unique equipment given to each department with (normally) full armor PLUS advanced weapons like Augers, Nitro, and Nerve Gas (Yes the Ethics Committee has authed this for a riot before). D-Class do not stand any chance of escaping even with this new riot system unless the Foundation is truly just incompetent or overwhelmed by multiple breaches and raids. Just because D-Class now sometimes are a challenge to face doesn't mean they should be nerfed again so they can get steamrolled by the Foundation in seconds every time they try to do anything fun for themselves.

And I know you say it's silly but if the Foundation can't handle a riot it really is a them issue. If a riot has gotten bad, Site Administration should call MTF in, steamroll them with an organized breach, and just keep doing back to back sweeps until the riot is over or just camp their asses. Some E-11 would stay back to protect 914 and LCZs Delta Wing. And just like that, the riot is dead. There are situations where riots can get real bad when combined with breaches and raids, and that's the point. But alone? They can be handled pretty simply. And yes Cadets are meant to be weak, they're the second job you can ever become in the server just by playing for 15 minutes. Cadets are not the only force you can use to fight a riot.

If this was an actually serious roleplay server, I'd be inclined to agree with nerfing D-Class from this. But it's not. Everyone plays very casually and most of the departments in this server aren't even whitelisted so anyone can join them without any quality assurance. Staff don't enforce roleplay rules like mixing, nobody plays a character, and most of the events this server has are just "hehe look 682 has babies now" or just modelling a bunch of admins as Lethal Company characters and running around doing absolutely nothing before ending the event.

I'm just going to give an example of what happened yesterday while I was on Site Director. So we had a D-Class Riot and around 30+ dclass rioting. Next there was around 10 CI raiding and 10 GOC raiding. Lastly there was 7 SCPs breached all rushing surface. Now I really do ask you how am I meant to just have MTF/DEA come? There is legit no counter play when half the server is made up of fucking D-Class/SCPs/GOIs. I mean I highly doubt UK has dedicated D-Class groups like DED or just D-class mains.

Also I would just like to point out the use of AA on D-Class is against server rules and that's just the SSL at the time authing that. They would never on now because we can barely do anything to D-Class (No more Mass Terms).

Also +support rp server btw

 

[Emilia Foddg]

I'm just going to give an example of what happened yesterday while I was on Site Director. So we had a D-Class Riot and around 30+ dclass rioting. Next there was around 10 CI raiding and 10 GOC raiding. Lastly there was 7 SCPs breached all rushing surface. Now I really do ask you how am I meant to just have MTF/DEA come? There is legit no counter play when half the server is made up of fucking D-Class/SCPs/GOIs. I mean I highly doubt UK has dedicated D-Class groups like DED or just D-class mains.

Also I would just like to point out the use of AA on D-Class is against server rules and that's just your SSL authing that. They would never on US because we can barely do anything to D-Class.

Also +support rp server btw

iirc frostbyte is also a US player unless they switched

 

[Chad]

iirc frostbyte is also a US player unless they switched

Oh yea you're right but he doesn't play anymore so

 

[Lightsoulist]

If this was an actually serious roleplay server, I'd be inclined to agree with nerfing D-Class from this. But it's not. Everyone plays very casually and most of the departments in this server aren't even whitelisted so anyone can join them without any quality assurance. Staff don't enforce roleplay rules like mixing, nobody plays a character, and most of the events this server has are just "hehe look 682 has babies now" or just modelling a bunch of admins as Lethal Company characters and running around doing absolutely nothing before ending the event.

 

[Lightsoulist]

So we had a D-Class Riot and around 30+ dclass rioting. Next there was around 10 CI raiding and 10 GOC raiding. Lastly there was 7 SCPs breached all rushing surface.

This is a very specific scenario that will likely not happen again or for a while I can guarantee you that at least

 

[Shark]

-Support

D-Class riots are extremely easy to handle if they're just managed by someone competent. Just to get a Riot, you need to kill 75 foundation members, do 75 tests, craft 80 items, and pay 8000 scrap. Then the riot lasts for 20 or 30 minutes tops before it reverts back to normal and you need to do all the quests again. And no one is obligated to listen to the D-Class when they try to rush tests. Just ignore them, and if they dont comply, don't credit them.

When riots do happen, literally all of DEA, Security/SRU/SCU, Nu7, E11, A-1, O-1, Combat Medics, and even Internal Affairs respond to it with completely free weapons and infinite ammo, plus unique equipment given to each department with (normally) full armor PLUS advanced weapons like Augers, Nitro, and Nerve Gas (Yes the Ethics Committee has authed this for a riot before). D-Class do not stand any chance of escaping even with this new riot system unless the Foundation is truly just incompetent or overwhelmed by multiple breaches and raids. Just because D-Class now sometimes are a challenge to face doesn't mean they should be nerfed again so they can get steamrolled by the Foundation in seconds every time they try to do anything fun for themselves.

And I know you say it's silly but if the Foundation can't handle a riot it really is a them issue. If a riot has gotten bad, Site Administration should call MTF in, steamroll them with an organized breach, and just keep doing back to back sweeps until the riot is over or just camp their asses. Some E-11 would stay back to protect 914 and LCZs Delta Wing. And just like that, the riot is dead. There are situations where riots can get real bad when combined with breaches and raids, and that's the point. But alone? They can be handled pretty simply. And yes Cadets are meant to be weak, they're the second job you can ever become in the server just by playing for 15 minutes. Cadets are not the only force you can use to fight a riot.

If this was an actually serious roleplay server, I'd be inclined to agree with nerfing D-Class from this. But it's not. Everyone plays very casually and most of the departments in this server aren't even whitelisted so anyone can join them without any quality assurance. Staff don't enforce roleplay rules like mixing, nobody plays a character, and most of the events this server has are just "hehe look 682 has babies now" or just modelling a bunch of admins as Lethal Company characters and running around doing absolutely nothing before ending the event.

Ah yes my favourite situation, Site Command authorizing rule breaking by allowing AA to be used on humans... very real! MTF, SCU, and DEA are regularly handling breaches and raids not dealing with D-Block situations. You can't bank on the idea that one or two E-11 that aren't busy dealing with other shit guarding 914 and being able to handle D-Class with far more EHP than them and probably more armed then they think.

The argument could be made that roleplay isn't enforced but the few instances that roleplay has been attempted by RP leaders as encouraged by SSL/NL it's stopped by situations like these. That point is an entirely separate discussion.

 

[moonyguru]

-support whatever changes sl brings out is amazing and doesn’t need changes

 

[Chad]

This is a very specific scenario that will likely not happen again or for a while I can guarantee you that at least

I mean it's already happened 2 times on US but ok.

 

[FrostByte]

Oh yea you're right but he doesn't play anymore so

I still play US pretty regularly now, almost every day as E-11 or CI.

I'm just going to give an example of what happened yesterday while I was on Site Director. So we had a D-Class Riot and around 30+ dclass rioting. Next there was around 10 CI raiding and 10 GOC raiding. Lastly there was 7 SCPs breached all rushing surface. Now I really do ask you how am I meant to just have MTF/DEA come? There is legit no counter play when half the server is made up of fucking D-Class/SCPs/GOIs. I mean I highly doubt UK has dedicated D-Class groups like DED or just D-class mains.

Also I would just like to point out the use of AA on D-Class is against server rules and that's just the SSL at the time authing that. They would never on now because we can barely do anything to D-Class (No more Mass Terms).

Also +support rp server btw

Why does GOC hate us so much
Also I think I was there for that, every single combative on the server focused solely on the D-Class and never helped us (E-11) in HCZ so they all broke each other out and B-Lined to d block then surface lol.

iirc frostbyte is also a US player unless they switched

Hi Emilia. Still an American, hoo-ah.

Ah yes my favourite situation, Site Command authorizing rule breaking by allowing AA to be used on humans... very real! MTF, SCU, and DEA are regularly handling breaches and raids not dealing with D-Block situations. You can't bank on the idea that one or two E-11 that aren't busy dealing with other shit guarding 914 and being able to handle D-Class with far more EHP than them and probably more armed then they think.

The argument could be made that roleplay isn't enforced but the few instances that roleplay has been attempted by RP leaders as encouraged by SSL/NL it's stopped by situations like these. That point is an entirely separate discussion.

(Why does DEA handle any of these things)
The site going to shit is just the site going to shit. That's what ERT exists for. ERT can pretty easily destroy every D-Class they encounter and take control back of any zone. The only exceptions are really god awful breaches with good SCP players + raids, or an 008 breach. I just dont think nerfing D-Class again when they rarely even get the chance to escape D-Block is the right solution.