Partially Accepted Eliminate the Third Person Restriction!!

[kankan!]

What does this suggestion change/add/remove:

As of 10/2, there was a restriction placed where you can no longer use Third Person During Codes 1, 2, and 5.
My suggestion is to remove this restriction.

Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?:

Considering this was implemented in the first place, I assume that a suggestion got passed to put this restriction into place. However, the general population of the server heavily disagrees with this.

Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):

- Rids possibilities on GOI Metagame.
Using this, GOI (CI mainly), can use this to their advantage. During a DC, they can use the Third Person to see if they've been called out, or if any SCP's have breached. It also can be the reason a Main Raid happens. CI can use this to their advantage thinking "All MTF must be focused on the Code-5, so it is a great time to raid while there is a distraction".
- As a player who mostly combats, and uses third person, it is very disappointing as 1st person FOV looks like shit for lack of a better term. Third person enhances roleplay experience especially during events. You're given a wider range on everything so you can see more of the event, and it just looks much nicer.

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:

Third Person abusing. This has been an issue on every server, not just Civil Networks, but that has never warranted for a server to restrict 3rd person. If you are worried about 3rd person abusing, just call a staff sit, and request video evidence.

Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:

Yes this third person restriction should be removed. Due to the general negative feedback of the community (currently 224 Downvotes to 30 Upvotes in the changelog discord channel). A lot of people are upset with this decision. Also, Third Person during Events and even active Codes allows for a better RP experience despite the possibility of third person abusing.

 

[Betriv]

how does using third person rid metagame and how the fuck are they gonna use 3rd person to see if they got called out???

 

[fyzar]

Yes this third person restriction should be removed. Due to the general negative feedback of the community (currently 224 Downvotes to 30 Upvotes in the changelog discord channel). A lot of people are upset with this decision. Also, Third Person during Events and even active Codes allows for a better RP experience despite the possibility of third person abusing.

third person should 100% be restricted during periods where it can be heavily abused, also first person is just cooler but removing hl2 voicelines is not cool and instead should be a toggle option in chat settings!!

 

[Niox]

Code 1 is fair in my opinion. That’s where third person abuse happens most. In combat with others.

Code 2 is meh, I’m fine with it as well.

Code 5 though. Really? Third person during a code 5 really isn’t going to make a difference ngl

 

[Alpa]

During a DC, they can use the Third Person to see if they've been called out, or if any SCP's have breached.

If they have eyes they can just look at the big fuck off signs on the wall that say what the current code is

It also can be the reason a Main Raid happens. CI can use this to their advantage thinking "All MTF must be focused on the Code-5, so it is a great time to raid while there is a distraction".

If they want to metagame it is very easy to just jump on foundation and go back, or get a friend on foundation to check, really doesn't change anything at all lmao

As a player who mostly combats, and uses third person, it is very disappointing as 1st person FOV looks like shit for lack of a better term. Third person enhances roleplay experience especially during events. You're given a wider range on everything so you can see more of the event, and it just looks much nicer.

what does this even mean "oh I hate being able to see things in front of me like any other gmod server or even just any other fps". Events also usually do not involve codes being called, and if they do then it is likely because there is combat, I also dont know what events you are playing where you need third person to "see more"

Third Person abusing. This has been an issue on every server, not just Civil Networks, but that has never warranted for a server to restrict 3rd person.

Objectively untrue lol, such a nothing point, I used to play a server that disabled third person during pvp and not a single person really complained


Its blatant you are crying because you are a CI player who abused third person and can't anymore lol, has been a while since ive seen a suggestion where someone is crying this hard over an objectively good change that prevents rule breaking, we all know staff never punished third person abuse

 

[kankan!]

how does using third person rid metagame

If they have eyes they can just look at the big fuck off signs on the wall that say what the current code is

50% of the time during DC’s you’re called out because someone’s waiting near vents and can hear you. Not all hostiles are gonna blatantly run to a sign just to see what code is called. My point was to focus more on the other things in that section such as raiding based off of certain codes. Sure you can job abuse and flag to foundation, but during my time on the server no one’s done that in my experience.

Events also usually do not involve codes being called

You’re right, events don’t directly involve codes being called. However, there’s been several (smaller) events that I’ve been present at where some jackass GSC calls a code-2, or even a code-5 will occur mid event. There’s people on the server that make a lot of cool art and things relating to their lore with images taken directly from 3rd person POV. Specifically with a Code-5/Code-1. Taking this away will make it much harder for players to be able to do this.

Its blatant you are crying because you are a CI player who abused third person and can't anymore lol

I don’t know if you forgot to take your perc-30 or something, which is the reason why you’re acting like a 10 year old. Not like I owe you any sort of explanation, but within the last month, 90% of my active VTime has been on foundation lmao. I really could care less what happens, I made the suggestion because I close combat in 3rd Person, and I enjoy more FOV. <3

 

[Emilia Foddg]

+Major Support
i was kinda eh about this change until i found that this affects event roles and 096

it's nice and cool that limiting thirdperson during codes is a technical possiblity, but i'm not sure if it's possible to allow for specific roles and/or usergroups to have thirdperson

first off, 096 should just have thirdperson at all times. you can't really third person abuse/metagame as 096 in this way because your entire objective is to get to and kill the marked targets, a task which is made much easier w/ thirdperson - plus it's easier to mind your face since there's weird clipping stuff that happens and people can see face through stuff like doors and such, which is even harder to mind in first person. i know there's been some patching up with the clipping stuff, but it's a little funky and letting 096 have thirdperson, even if just to ensure the player can prevent any issues in this way, would be fine. unless it's not possible to allow it for specific roles, then that's fine

Code 5 though. Really? Third person during a code 5 really isn’t going to make a difference ngl

...but what if you are the scp? tbf 682 probably should be allowed thirdperson because funky model stuff and hitbox, getting stuck etc. - and 939 because the attack hitbox is a little funky too imo, but thirdperson concerns, sure. i can see it - it's a difficult decision, especially w/ 939 and movement-based vision. honestly, just a good buff for 939 would just be to allow thirdperson abuse, so it'd be allowed to use the information of seeing people moving while in thirdperson, chalk that up to something like its eye structure, idk. evolutionary predatory optimisation. it's the weakest SCP on the server right now.

primarily the issues are with reality benders - TG, TB, 8837. pretty much all the SCPs that do combat like a regular dude, can benefit from thirdperson abuse. so i'd understand preventing them from using thirdperson.

for everyone fighting the breach, yeah. it doesn't matter. the only issue comes when you have a raid + breach, because then you have regular pvp on top of breach. there is the planned thing in a ticket about having multiple codes active? i'm not sure how that would work with this - it'll probably just be an OR situation wherein if code 1 or 2 is active at all alongside other codes, thirdperson gets disabled - in which case, even less case for restricting it during a C5.

also about event jobs and such;

Events also usually do not involve codes being called, and if they do then it is likely because there is combat, I also dont know what events you are playing where you need third person to "see more"

You’re right, events don’t directly involve codes being called. However, there’s been several (smaller) events that I’ve been present at where some jackass GSC calls a code-2, or even a code-5 will occur mid event. There’s people on the server that make a lot of cool art and things relating to their lore with images taken directly from 3rd person POV. Specifically with a Code-5/Code-1. Taking this away will make it much harder for players to be able to do this.

what about doing event prep or making a dupe, w/e and a code gets called during that? sure, working on PAC stuff is fine as that's unaffected, but this is disruptive for doing other things as a GM.

additionally, there are instances where just using thirdperson in combat can actually make you worse at it compared to firstperson, which is sometimes desired for event purposes

also, you would probably not get clips like this, this, this or this, without the use of thirdperson during a combat situation, during an event/rp enhancement.

ALSO and most importantly as pointed out to me by my good gm friend napoleon - your own pac doesn't render in first person. so there's no way to time your action with with pac3 anims where necessary (or even just ensure your pac is like showing, still working, not bugging around, etc.) which means that for GMs, thirdperson is absolutely required in those circumstances.

how does using third person rid metagame and how the fuck are they gonna use 3rd person to see if they got called out???

If they have eyes they can just look at the big fuck off signs on the wall that say what the current code is

If they want to metagame it is very easy to just jump on foundation and go back, or get a friend on foundation to check, really doesn't change anything at all lmao

50% of the time during DC’s you’re called out because someone’s waiting near vents and can hear you. Not all hostiles are gonna blatantly run to a sign just to see what code is called. My point was to focus more on the other things in that section such as raiding based off of certain codes. Sure you can job abuse and flag to foundation, but during my time on the server no one’s done that in my experience.

not sure why i have to explain this, but here's the simple step by step process to cheesing this:

1. have a thirdperson bind or just use the C menu
   
   
2. be CI/GOC on surface
   
   
3. press thirdperson button
   
   
4. if thirdperson works, the code is not active. if thirdperson does not work, code is active
   
   
5. (optional) relay this information to other faction members, potentially those who are doing a DC or main raid

as for the individual things raised: sign method doesn't work if the relevant electrical box is broken and also requires you to be in an area where you can see a sign or otherwise go see a sign. also the action of going from an area where there aren't any signs, to an area where there is, carries the risk of an encounter which could end the raid. getting this information via this method of metagame (as well as this method being... you know, actually metagame) is faster and less riskier.

switching characters is not only time-consuming, but more obvious to staff and easier to catch. the friend method however is stealthier, but potentially takes a little more time and also involves an entire other person, which not only needs them to be available and willing, but also carries the risk of miscommunication - which i get is a bit much of an analysis into a "lmao funny meta sweat strats," but honestly, having a thirdperson bind and just hitting it to see if a code's been called or even just using the one in C menu is like. it's right there, it's easy and it's free. 100% less hassle

---

anyway, i think my point is thoroughly proven about this - i hope it's possible to allow specific usergroups and roles to be exempt from this, but if not, ah well. i think it does need some revision, though because while the change is imo impressive on a technical level, the level of disruption to the server is a bit much imo

also, the probable simplest and best method to counter everything i just outlined above? universally allow thirdperson at surface level regardless of code (obviously we don't care about surface combat because we don't want to encourage scp-rp to be more like mrp ('we' here being my caricature of staff) it's a very cool hack that you can apply to any suggestion (Q.E.D., simply do a search in the resolved suggestions subforum for 'surface' and read through all suggestions about changing the surface in some way, shape or form)). given that gmod is gmod, i would definitely be impressed if thirdperson restrictions based on global altitude is something that is technically possible
you know what, nuclear option here, just allow GMs to abuse thirdperson for any and every circumstance, as a perk of being a GM

 

[Guts]

to whoever approved of this

tell me how long these codes usually last before they are called off, I'm waiting

 

[Sebastian]

+Support

I agree with removing it, but it would make more sense for it to only apply to combatives and not to any non-combatives. Non-combatives use it a lot to enhance the experience, but with how long the codes go on, you're never really able to use third-person.

 

[Dayumian max]

Code-1 is fine, but i belive code 2 and 5 is not needed. 1 tb gets called out and my thirdperson is gone for 3 hours beacuse tb just sitting in d block, there are other uses of thirdperson, not just thirdperson peaking

 

[Aura_]

Fighting SCPs that are in third person waiting around corners for clueless people to walk over gives me a strong desire to test the durability of my walls with my face.

This is quite annoying especially when fighting someone like 7722 or any of the reality benders.


tbh, this change is more or less mixed feelings for me, I personally dont really use 3p in combat because of inconsistencies, but I know very well from Surface combat there are a lot of mfs using 3p to peek over hills safely. I have the clips too!

 

[François "Napoléon"]

+ support from an event standpoint

As some people know i use pac 3 a lot, and most of the time I have to time my anims with sweps to make what I do work. When tps is LOCKED your pac3 DOES NOT render for you making the use of any cool anims to be time with your pac IMPOSSIBLE during any codes. Codes already interrupted some of my rp but now it is LITTERALY IMPOSSIBLE to use any pac3 anims that require precise timing at all because of this change since I cannot see my own pac because of this. Even if we don't remove this restriction fully make it not impact non combative and event jobs or just event jobs in general.

 

[Archangel]

-support

Code 1 is fair game

Code 2 is fair game

Code 5 is fair game

Why code 5? Cause on UK Code 5 takes priority over Code 1 if both are in effect, and so while SCPs are breached there can also be CI AND D-Class running around who all have third person out, are third person abusing and peeking.

 

[Emilia Foddg]

-support

Code 1 is fair game

Code 2 is fair game

Code 5 is fair game

Why code 5? Cause on UK Code 5 takes priority over Code 1 if both are in effect, and so while SCPs are breached there can also be CI AND D-Class running around who all have third person out, are third person abusing and peeking.

wow @Niox look at that, this really was a suggestion that @Archangel would like
L take though, completely ignores every issue raised in this thread

 

[Arlos56]

+Support​

as someone who is in dblock a lot and dealing with code 2’s they can last a very long time wether there’s a tb or info breach the entire server should not be punished considering there isn’t much opportunities to third person peak in d block. For code 5 why not just get rid of third person peak for scps the only scps that would be able to third person peak is tg 8837, 7722, and 035 the rest wouldn’t be very useful.

 

[Douglas]

+SUPPORT - Don't remove it, but modify/integrate it better
Make it only affect combative jobs as a start.

Issues I am running into:
- I can't third person check whether I am cloaked while on the staff job.
- 096 can't be in third person.
- Code 2's last very long and block out people who are trying to roleplay/event.
- There isn't a big advantage towards scps by third person peaking.
- Many players who are non-combative play in third person.
- There are non-hostile scps that can't use third person.
- Third person peaking sits aren't super difficult to deal with/prove, we usually get a ping of "Spectate this person we think they are third person peaking", we watch them, then pull and deal with them. It is very obvious if someone is doing it when we watch them. I mean very.

How to fix:
- Combative jobs only.
- Make it so you can call multiple codes at the same time (Can have a higher priority code 5 for scps with a code 1 that blocks third person).
- For code 2, make it only activate if you are inside of D-Block. Don't make it affect everyone.
- If surface hill peaking is an issue, disable it for those specific areas.
- Disable it for specific combative scps during code 5/4/3/black.

 

[Guts]

the change for thirdperson really wasn't thought through before implementing it

 

[Marvin Garden]

I reject this, and suggest the following two possibilities:
A: Make it so nobody can use thirdperson again
B: Make it so everybody can ONLY use thirdperson

 

[Guts]

I reject this, and suggest the following two possibilities:
A: Make it so nobody can use thirdperson again
B: Make it so everybody can ONLY use thirdperson

the only acceptable outcome is B

 

[Archangel]

this really was a suggestion that @Archangel would like

ITS MY OWN SUGGESTION WDYM????