Denied Give the O-1 Operative Job a Weapon Checker

[Robin]

What does this suggestion change/add/remove:
Adds a Weapon Checker to the O-1 Operative Job

Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?:
I have not seen it yet.

Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):
- This will help us check people or strip their guns whenever someone wants to talk to the ECM or ECC for their Safety
- Check people for guns

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:
- None because people who are in O-1 or are going to join O-1 have been selected by their common sense and skills so they wont be abusing it and trolling people with it by taking away other people their guns

Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:
As there are no negative stuff about this and will help us with many things when there is no higher rank that can go Specialist job for example to check a person. It should get accepted from my opinion.

 

[Emilia Foddg]

-/+ Neutral
I don't have enough operational experience in this departmental area to speak with any kind of authority - I get the use cases for weapon checks for ISD and why you may need them, but why do you suggest this for one side of ISD and not the other? Do A-1 operatives already get weapon checkers and if not, why should this apply to just O-1 when the reason you've given could feasibly apply to them, too? (Like, surely no-one in presence of any member of Site Command should be armed without being a trusted individual, right? This feels one-sided)

About your reasoning regarding O-1 selection; Sadly as much as we all wish this were true and filter as we may try, no department is immune to minges. I mean yes, we do have punishments like blacklisting and PTs for this kind of thing - And ofc those would and should be used in those cases. It's still a consideration that needs to be taken into account, however.

I do otherwise agree, but the last remaining thing is a balance concern. I don't know if there was a reason that O-1 operatives weren't given weapon checkers in the first place. There is probably one - And it's probably related to balance. That's primarily why this is neutral.

 

[Crimson]

-/+ Neutral

not even A-1 operative has this, so only having this for O-1 is a bit icky. but if this gets added for both operatives then yeah, it'd be nice but then that'd make ISD even more OP (plus strip binds exist)

 

[Sylveon]

Since Weapons are no longer strippable via Binds, I think weapon checkers should be more common place, especially for ISD's.

I support the idea of this being added to both A-1 and O-1 Operatives.

 

["Apollo"]

+Support
-Yes

 

[Mozzie]

+support
only if its for both ISD

 

[Kufie]

+ support if it’s for both A-1 and O-1

 

[Robin]

oops, yeah I meant for both, A-1 and O-1 Operative Job

 

[Snake]

Not isd but I think both should get it, would make a lot of sense

 

[Niox]

-Support

Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?:
I have not seen it yet.

Denied - Give ISD Operatives / Enforcer Weapon Checker

What does this suggestion change/add/remove: [ADDS WEAPON CHECKER TO ISD OPERATIVES (ENLISTED) AND O-1 & A-1 OPERATIVE JOB AND ENFORCEMENT JOB (CSG+) FOR BOTH O-1 AND A-1 ] Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2): [IT WILL HELP OUT ISD OPERATIVES AND ENFORCEMENT CARRY OUT THEIR...

www.civilgamers.com

Remember to search up keywords and look for it, took me like, 15 seconds.

Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):
- This will help us check people or strip their guns whenever someone wants to talk to the ECM or ECC for their Safety
- Check people for guns

You have just described what the weapon checker does. "Helps us strip their guns", and "Helps us check for guns".
Basically the same thing but twice for filler.

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:
- None because people who are in O-1 or are going to join O-1 have been selected by their common sense and skills so they wont be abusing it and trolling people with it by taking away other people their guns

None? Literally 0? Nothing at all?


>Takes away from other jobs with weapon checkers

>Makes disguised individuals easier to identify (As more ISD could weapon check people)

>Misuse. Even if they are ISD, mistakes happen. People could misuse the weapon checker and weapon check people without a reason, which is FailRP. Afterall, this is a Operative job. No one is perfect.

Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:
As there are no negative stuff about this and will help us with many things when there is no higher rank that can go Specialist job for example to check a person. It should get accepted from my opinion.

Look at the above.
And also, even if there is no higher ranking O1 on you can still COOPERATE with other Departments to just..... Take someone's guns? (Although for things such as meeting a ECM is does get a bit more iffy) but the point still stands that ISD should not be lone wolfing everything.

 

[Noah Dingle/'Shepherd']

-Support

 

[Wonka Kane]

-support

Specialists and officer job have weapon checker if I remember correctly, just get them to do it. Y'all mfs dont need to arm yourselves with every tool you can because of some minor inconvenience.

 

["Arachnid"]

-support

Specialists and officer job have weapon checker if I remember correctly, just get them to do it. Y'all mfs dont need to arm yourselves with every tool you can because of some minor inconvenience.

"Just wait for a NCO or Command member to get on to do your job"
Enlisted struggles

 

[Alpa]

+Support (writing from reference of an A-1)

A-1's primary duty is to protect members of the O5 council, a lot of the time this will involve searching for, and stripping weapons off of people. A-1's secondary duties almost all involve the use of a weapon checker in a beneficial way. When considering if a class should get a piece of utility it's important to look at how useful it is to their duties, in the case of A-1 and O-1 it is almost necessary to effectively perform their duties, I could not count how many times I have heard A-1 call out for other people to assist them in performing some menial duty because they did not have a weapon checker. An individual member of A-1 is not and should not be a one man army, however this is a basic task that can't be done efficiently a lot of the time due to not having a weapon checker.

It is also important to consider how many other roles have a weapon checker:
All IA
All Gensec (Except SCU)
All DEA

While I understand misuse of the weapon checker is possible it is incredibly rare and the roles that have a weapon checker for the most part as easily accesible for a new player.

>Takes away from other jobs with weapon checkers

>Makes disguised individuals easier to identify (As more ISD could weapon check people)

>Misuse. Even if they are ISD, mistakes happen. People could misuse the weapon checker and weapon check people without a reason, which is FailRP. Afterall, this is a Operative job. No one is perfect.

And also, even if there is no higher ranking O1 on you can still COOPERATE with other Departments to just..... Take someone's guns?

Considering these potential negatives, the argument that it can take away from other jobs with a weapon checker is a null argument due to the fact that weapon checking is such a menial task, every other job which has a frequent use for a weapon checker gets one, why would they not have to cooporate with another departments? A-1 and O-1 for the most part work in secrecy to other members of the foundation, out of all the people that require weapon checkers to perform their primary and secondary duties they should not be required to work with other departments, a lot of the time situations can be time critical or out of public eye.

With the whole miuse and making disguised individuals easier to identify arguments, if A-1 has suspicion enough to weapon check someone, they will do it regardless, it just wastes a lot of time calling someone with a weapon checker over if one is not present, which could cause potential issues in time sensitive situations as stated previously. With the whole topic of misuse, if nearly every Gensec rank, every DEA, every IA can be trusted with a weapon checker, why shouldn't A-1 and O-1 be trusted when they are held to a significantly higher standard?

With the final point, cooporation with other departments is not always an option, or something that can be feasibly done.

I understand the argument of wanting to prevent "one man army" roles but giving a weapon checker to operative will hardly make it that, it is a basic tool that A-1 and O-1 require to perform their primary duties.

 

[Niox]

A-1's primary duty is to protect members of the O5 council, a lot of the time this will involve searching for, and stripping weapons off of people. A-1's secondary duties almost all involve the use of a weapon checker in a beneficial way. When considering if a class should get a piece of utility it's important to look at how useful it is to their duties, in the case of A-1 and O-1 it is almost necessary to effectively perform their duties, I could not count how many times I have heard A-1 call out for other people to assist them in performing some menial duty because they did not have a weapon checker. An individual member of A-1 is not and should not be a one man army, however this is a basic task that can't be done efficiently a lot of the time due to not having a weapon checker.

Good point.
No really thats it for this piece, well written point

It is also important to consider how many other roles have a weapon checker:
All IA
All Gensec (Except SCU)
All DEA

While I understand misuse of the weapon checker is possible it is incredibly rare and the roles that have a weapon checker for the most part as easily accesible for a new player.

In some aspects i would disagree
GSD are more limited to D-Block, and there is less Misuse as the only readily available people to weapon check are D-Class, they don't just go patrolling about weapon checking everyone they see.
(IA get one?) IA for arresting and taking illegal contraband off people.
DEA is stupid imo.

(When i refer to "Misuse" im referring to the FailRP clarification that is weapon checking people for no real reason btw)
I still believe that Misuse could happen as this is a Operative job, especially with ISD's presence on the site of doing whatever they want they could just randomly Weapon Check someone because they believe its their authority to.

Considering these potential negatives, the argument that it can take away from other jobs with a weapon checker is a null argument due to the fact that weapon checking is such a menial task, every other job which has a frequent use for a weapon checker gets one, why would they not have to cooporate with another departments? A-1 and O-1 for the most part work in secrecy to other members of the foundation, out of all the people that require weapon checkers to perform their primary and secondary duties they should not be required to work with other departments, a lot of the time situations can be time critical or out of public eye.

It being a menial task doesn't really change anything - As an example only Chemist's/DoM's can spawn Beakers, allowing RSD per say to spawn beakers takes away from those two jobs, even if the task is menial.
For acting in secrecy yeah good point chief.

I do want to note that Specialist and Officer both already have Weapon Checkers, and more often than not there will be one on to do the weapon checking.

With the final point, cooporation with other departments is not always an option, or something that can be feasibly done.

Mentioned above with Secrecy
(If it isn't about secrecy then idk what it would be about)

I understand the argument of wanting to prevent "one man army" roles but giving a weapon checker to operative will hardly make it that, it is a basic tool that A-1 and O-1 require to perform their primary duties.

ISD would:
Have a CL4 that they can use with permission.
A Interrogation Tool
A Weapon Checker
Elastic Restraints
Some of the Best Guns

On their Operative Job
Yeah, seems quite like a one man army.


No hate btw, this is a well written reasoning and response, well done on that and I 100% completely get where your coming from, i just want to point out my thoughts on it and all.

 

[Monker]

+Support just add the mrp weapon stripping system that is already made so you do not need a wrench to take someone's weapons

 

[Painter]

+support

must pat down everyone on anyjob

 

[Joris Kilotoviz/London]

+Support

I've seen a lot of things said here. So I'll add my thoughts.

1. "ISD may randomly weapon check" I can see where this might come from with DC raids, but if they do randomly do it then clip it and call a staff sit. It is failrp to randomly weapon check.

2. "Certain Roles already have weapon checkers" While this is true, you are not always going to have NCO+ on at the same time as SC. This would be problematic for ISD as then it would be much more difficult to actually organise meetings with other personnel as they couldn't verify there were no weapons.

3. "It'd take away from foundation roles that have weapon checkers" I personally don't see where this one has come from. There are so many foundation roles with weapon checkers already that it's basically standard equipment. Additionally it takes away from ISDs Rp, for example if they were sent to kidnap someone by SC, then there would be a chance that they couldn't weapon check, and if they were doing something in secret then it would make little sense for them to need to get a different role to weapon check

 

[Niox]

1. "ISD may randomly weapon check" I can see where this might come from with DC raids, but if they do randomly do it then clip it and call a staff sit. It is failrp to randomly weapon check.

to an extent yes - on the other hand if containment units started spawning with nitro to fight SCP's, there would obviously be a lot of rule breaks. Sure you can report to staff, but that doesn't change that the issue can still pop up again
(obviously this is an exaggerated example but you get the point)

2. "Certain Roles already have weapon checkers" While this is true, you are not always going to have NCO+ on at the same time as SC. This would be problematic for ISD as then it would be much more difficult to actually organise meetings with other personnel as they couldn't verify there were no weapons.

Out of all of ISD, you're telling me there wouldn't be a single, not a single NCO+ on at the same time as SC?
Sure, it happens occasionally, but at that point there's usually only 1/2 ISD on at the same time as well.

3. "It'd take away from foundation roles that have weapon checkers" I personally don't see where this one has come from. There are so many foundation roles with weapon checkers already that it's basically standard equipment. Additionally it takes away from ISDs Rp, for example if they were sent to kidnap someone by SC, then there would be a chance that they couldn't weapon check, and if they were doing something in secret then it would make little sense for them to need to get a different role to weapon check

Alright, what has a Weapon Checker on Foundation:

GSD - Specially used on D-Class, not used for C1's therefore less likely to be used for FailRP Reasons
IA - Used for taking contraband off others and isn't used during C1's as they are semi-combative
DEA - (I think its a bit wack) but DEA are the DPT of External Affairs, so its likely they would use this on surface.
COM Jobs - They lead regiments and certain areas, makes sense for them to have it and doesn't overwhelm every job with weapon checkers.
ISD SPC Jobs - Specialists take disguises and stay hidden, potentially needing to weapon check someone on a whim. They are also Specialised to do mostly everything.

I believe that's everything, do correct me if I am wrong.
Taking away ISD RP, Fair. You still have to remember that 3/11 ranks are the only jobs who don't get the weapon checker (Although they are the lowest ranks). Other than that good point.

 

[Joris Kilotoviz/London]

Honestly part of my point comes from the experience of having my MTF roles incredibly hampered because there were no NCO+ on. So I do feel some pity towards having core parts of your Regiments gameplay rank locked (AA only being authed for NCO+ during hellish breaches my beloved)

So I will admit that I have some bias

to an extent yes - on the other hand if containment units started spawning with nitro to fight SCP's, there would obviously be a lot of rule breaks. Sure you can report to staff, but that doesn't change that the issue can still pop up again
(obviously this is an exaggerated example but you get the point)


Out of all of ISD, you're telling me there wouldn't be a single, not a single NCO+ on at the same time as SC?
Sure, it happens occasionally, but at that point there's usually only 1/2 ISD on at the same time as well.


Alright, what has a Weapon Checker on Foundation:

GSD - Specially used on D-Class, not used for C1's therefore less likely to be used for FailRP Reasons
IA - Used for taking contraband off others and isn't used during C1's as they are semi-combative
DEA - (I think its a bit wack) but DEA are the DPT of External Affairs, so its likely they would use this on surface.
COM Jobs - They lead regiments and certain areas, makes sense for them to have it and doesn't overwhelm every job with weapon checkers.
ISD SPC Jobs - Specialists take disguises and stay hidden, potentially needing to weapon check someone on a whim. They are also Specialised to do mostly everything.

I believe that's everything, do correct me if I am wrong.
Taking away ISD RP, Fair. You still have to remember that 3/11 ranks are the only jobs who don't get the weapon checker (Although they are the lowest ranks). Other than that good point.