Rule Suggestion Rule 1.1 Clarification for Civilian Trespassing

[Kito]

What does this suggestion change/add/remove:
Clarifies that Foundation and Global Occult Coalition personnel may not immediately kill Civilians within their base that aren't breaking rules(such as Parawatch entering Site-65), unless the individual is armed, hacking, or otherwise posing a threat to someone's life that isn't their own.

This forces both GOC, and F security, to RP with the trespasser, leading to more RP conducive action overall for both sides, since Parawatch(and other Civilian roles) require an RP reason to enter the site, while the GOC, and F security, do not require an RP reason to kill them if they are trespassing, which I believed to be in violation of Rule 1.1, but an Admin specified it wasn't, in which this rule clarification was suggested.

Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?:
Not to my knowledge.

Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):
+ More RP between Civ. / MTF or Security.
+ Can lead to RP conducive firefights in appropriate scenarios.
+ More accurate to what the Foundation would actually do, specifically the motto "we die in the dark so you can live in the light".

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:
- Civilians might shoot Foundation on sight.
- Civilians might end up feeling like fighting disguised D-Class personnel occasionally.

Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:
I believe it is more RP conducive with a clarification on this rule being instated, as there is some genuine confusion of players getting warned for killing Parawatch on-sight inside the facility versus Admins saying it isn't against the rules. Thanks!

 

[Billy "Villager" Bob]

+support
pretty sure it's already RDM to do this anyways

Sadly its not considered RDM as they are tresspassing. Its just an IC issue and not an OOC issue. IA can arrest if they see someone terminate a civi that is complying or in cuffs.

 

[Kito]

-/+mixed

I LOVE the rp of cuffing a dude ignoring fear rp, struggling to walk him up to surface because they're pressing every button on the way, wasting class A on him just for him to come back in and repeat it all 10 minutes or less later all to be futile because documents don't show up with a weapon checker!

As for the other civilian classes I've just started having admins send them back because they shouldn't be inside in the first place and I ain't wasting class-A or my time walking them up.

All I have to say is the fact that this is covered within Roleplay by the Code Of Ethics (1.09) I would prefer that this remain in RP so that people breaching such rules can be dealt with within RP as well ?‍

-Support

I Myself find plenty of Civs trespassing so i give them the Shoot right away treatment.

They could be armed, they could be CI, But most importantly they TRESPASSED into a "Military" Site, it is never a good idea to do that especially considering the important things they have in such areas and when i go to not shoot them instead take them alive, i get shot at 90% of the time and there's more of them than me.

The entire purpose of the Foundation is to protect civilians, and your character, even in the Foundation, shouldnt be willingly killing civilians on-sight just because its a classified area. If someone is obviously failRPing, that doesn't make this rule any more or less valid, nor does it nullify the suggestion.

If a parawatch, ranger, or MC&D is minging, report it to staff, dont make a -support on a forums post, and definitely dont allow those instances to effect every instance. Some people actually try to RP believe it or not.

 

[Dennid]

we dont shoot most civs!!!

speak for yourself

 

[Kevin Ki]

The entire purpose of the Foundation is to protect civilians, and your character, even in the Foundation, shouldnt be willingly killing civilians on-sight just because its a classified area. If someone is obviously failRPing, that doesn't make this rule any more or less valid, nor does it nullify the suggestion.

If a parawatch, ranger, or MC&D is minging, report it to staff, dont make a -support on a forums post, and definitely dont allow those instances to effect every instance. Some people actually try to RP believe it or not.

Breaking this down:
"The entire purpose of the Foundation is to protect civilians"
No it's not. I don't know what lore YOU read, but the purpose of the foundation is to Secure anomalies in an area that they will be out of public eye, Contain them within said areas with [If possible] as much comfort as possible, and Protect them from outside forces attempting to use them for their own gain, all while maintaining the veil. Civilian casualties are expected but should be avoided. A dude climbing into a vent to a area that is labeled to have lethal force authorized, then acting surprised they are met with aggression when they're deep inside said area is plain out stupid. If I ran into Area 51 and didn't stop running when I saw a guard spot me/had a gun on myself, I would expect they're going to kill me. But that doesn't happen REALISTICALLY because it's so stupid to do.

"and your character, even in the Foundation, shouldn't be willingly killing civilians on-sight just because its a classified area"
And why is their character crawling into military vents? Do YOU randomly crawl into vents? Do you do that while carrying a gun around a military base? No. So why are you applying this idea of realism in an unrealistic scenario? Also I could be wrong but people that DO do that to the foundation tend to go missing.

"If someone is obviously failRPing, that doesn't make this rule any more or less valid, nor does it nullify the suggestion."
Nah, it's just a stupid rule, because there's not enough rules on the civilian classes to justify it. They can basically do whatever they want on Parawatch as long as someone flags them with their gun. I've had a SSL tell me that if you even look towards them with your gun at the ready [Not aimed] they can count it as aggression and shoot you. Couple that to the fact that if they really wanted to they could just cycle off the job and have someone else flag up to avoid the 10 minute wait, and I've seen parawatch and MC&D do that, because they're not a collective group like CI where they HAVE to follow the DC30. Also we STILL have the not being able to strip documents issue where if they DO have a document, we're basically not able to take it off them.

"If a parawatch, ranger, or MC&D is minging, report it to staff,"
Again. Not enough rules to prevent it.

"dont make a -support on a forums post"
I will continue to.

"and definitely dont allow those instances to effect every instance."
Pattern recognition.

"Some people actually try to RP believe it or not."
The RP is bad and repetitive. I will continue to shoot parawatch aiming guns.

 

[YandereMuffin]

+ Small Support
+ Big positive for GOC, in GOC base - it takes 30 seconds to pull someone out, and GOC shouldnt be killing civilians unnecessarily.
- Medium netural for Foundation, killing civilians who break in isn't anti-lore and kinda makes sense, it can also take like 10+ mins to kick a civilian out. The RP exists possibly but I rarely ever see it occur (I don't find asking the same 3 questions without good answers, then dragging a blind/gagged person out as quality RP).

edit: Foundation should at least interrogate civilians before terminating them, it's not a massive step up but it makes more sense than KOSing them when it's so easy to cuff and interrogate them.

The only group I don't think my above goes for is MC&D, they should rarely be killed unless they're entering site illegally in mass.

edit: previously neutral, now + support.

 

[Kito]

Breaking this down:
"The entire purpose of the Foundation is to protect civilians"
No it's not. I don't know what lore YOU read, but the purpose of the foundation is to Secure anomalies in an area that they will be out of public eye, Contain them within said areas with [If possible] as much comfort as possible, and Protect them from outside forces attempting to use them for their own gain, all while maintaining the veil. Civilian casualties are expected but should be avoided. A dude climbing into a vent to a area that is labeled to have lethal force authorized, then acting surprised they are met with aggression when they're deep inside said area is plain out stupid. If I ran into Area 51 and didn't stop running when I saw a guard spot me/had a gun on myself, I would expect they're going to kill me. But that doesn't happen REALISTICALLY because it's so stupid to do.

"and your character, even in the Foundation, shouldn't be willingly killing civilians on-sight just because its a classified area"
And why is their character crawling into military vents? Do YOU randomly crawl into vents? Do you do that while carrying a gun around a military base? No. So why are you applying this idea of realism in an unrealistic scenario? Also I could be wrong but people that DO do that to the foundation tend to go missing.

"If someone is obviously failRPing, that doesn't make this rule any more or less valid, nor does it nullify the suggestion."
Nah, it's just a stupid rule, because there's not enough rules on the civilian classes to justify it. They can basically do whatever they want on Parawatch as long as someone flags them with their gun. I've had a SSL tell me that if you even look towards them with your gun at the ready [Not aimed] they can count it as aggression and shoot you. Couple that to the fact that if they really wanted to they could just cycle off the job and have someone else flag up to avoid the 10 minute wait, and I've seen parawatch and MC&D do that, because they're not a collective group like CI where they HAVE to follow the DC30. Also we STILL have the not being able to strip documents issue where if they DO have a document, we're basically not able to take it off them.

"If a parawatch, ranger, or MC&D is minging, report it to staff,"
Again. Not enough rules to prevent it.

"dont make a -support on a forums post"
I will continue to.

"and definitely dont allow those instances to effect every instance."
Pattern recognition.

"Some people actually try to RP believe it or not."
The RP is bad and repetitive. I will continue to shoot parawatch aiming guns.

As I stated in my suggestion, this rule would not apply to civilians with guns drawn, either on safety or aimed.

Most of your points seem to come from an agitated state, which I dont blame you for, but generally speaking this rule would encourage more genuine, active roleplay from both sides. Being disgruntled or frustrated because one side is refusing to RP appropriately doesnt fix the situation, now does it?

"The Foundation protects humanity from the effects of such anomalies as well as the anomalies themselves until such time that they are either fully understood or new theories of science can be devised based on their properties and behavior-", a quote taken directly from here, the SCP Wikidot, and origin of the SCP Foundation's lore & complete archive.

While this quote does not directly protect civilians from trespassing, it is not only unrealistic but non-conducive or roleplay to kill-on-sight. I believe this rule would benefit server health almost exclusively, with only a few persons such as yourself who may genuinely be upset by such a clarification.

If you believe there is not enough rules regarding civilian classes, and the raid procedures, you can make an additional suggestion for another separate rule clarification. The only current problems are caused because of a lack of RP from one side, leading to the other simply doing the same, with a continuous stalemate of non-RP conducive behavior.

However I have explained my points thoroughly enough, and will not continue to response to your comments on this post. You may use this information as you wish, but if I have no already changed your mind, I simply cannot. Thank you for you time.

 

[Kito]

+/ -Mixed
+ Big positive for GOC, in GOC base - it takes 30 seconds to pull someone out, and GOC shouldnt be killing civilians unnecessarily.
- Medium netural for Foundation, killing civilians who break in isn't anti-lore and kinda makes sense, it can also take like 10+ mins to kick a civilian out. The RP exists possibly but I rarely ever see it occur (I don't find asking the same 3 questions without good answers, then dragging a blind/gagged person out as quality RP).

The only group I don't think my above goes for is MC&D, they should rarely be killed unless they're entering site illegally in mass.

The few times Ive tried conducting actual parawatch RP, with documents, conspiracy development, etc., all ended when I entered the site and got spotted by any MTF personnel, in which I am immediately killed. Ive been interrogated a whopping one time, and it was conducted so poorly I can obviously see why parawatch would rather expedite the process and be killed or amnesticated.

I believe the concerns of document retrieval are a bit odd, but DEA and Nu7 can sweep the parawatch house, or request the GOC to assist in containment of a infohazard.

In regard to civilians being killed on sight when entering a military base, or the SCP Foundation site, it is anti-lore, as one of the core concepts of the SCP Foundation is to protect civilians, as stated on the wikidot's "About The SCP Foundation".

"Mankind must not go back to hiding in fear. No one else will protect us, and we must stand up for ourselves."

 

[YandereMuffin]

The few times Ive tried conducting actual parawatch RP, with documents, conspiracy development, etc.

I think parawatch RP has the potential to be great, but the server is just too much combat focussed nowadays that I don't think it would go amazingly.

If parawatch had a buff to allow them to do more then I could see making rules against KOSing them, but currently RP is limited because of parawatch's lack of power and how quickly they get caught...

I am editing my other comment a tiny bit to support.

 

[Kito]

I think parawatch RP has the potential to be great, but the server is just too much combat focussed nowadays that I don't think it would go amazingly.

If parawatch had a buff to allow them to do more then I could see making rules against KOSing them, but currently RP is limited because of parawatch's lack of power and how quickly they get caught...

I am editing my other comment a tiny bit to support.

So the issue currently, and prior, is that Parawatch are discouraged from RPing as SOP doesnt really do much on surface, and as a result getting a valid RP reason to enter the site is very difficult. This leads to people simply breaking rules to have a little fun as parawatch or similar.

Though I suggested this because when someone does get a valid RP reason, they are instantly thrown in with the 'obviously a minge' group for trespassing in the site, and killed. This results in the parawatch thinking RP isnt valuable, and the security have yet another minge to add to the list, which isnt fun for either side and kills future RP.

The aim with this rule is requiring F security to actually detain parawatch & report those who break the rules in those scenarios, or face being punished themselves.

Like I said, Ive had plenty of experiences from both sides of this argument, and firmly believe parawatch / civilian RP with F is extremely limited and favors no roleplay in the first place. Anyways, Im gonna stop making so many responses to keep the comments a bit more clear! Thanks for your time. I think you're pretty cool

 

[Hypnotoad]

The entire purpose of the Foundation is to protect civilians, and your character, even in the Foundation, shouldnt be willingly killing civilians on-sight just because its a classified area. If someone is obviously failRPing, that doesn't make this rule any more or less valid, nor does it nullify the suggestion.

If a parawatch, ranger, or MC&D is minging, report it to staff, dont make a -support on a forums post, and definitely dont allow those instances to effect every instance. Some people actually try to RP believe it or not.

I believe that this should be left to in-character policies, the code of Ethics provides protections for non-hostile GOIs, and this in itself includes the civilian populous. I think taking away the RP aspect of a foundation member killing a civilian in the base without undertaking proper protocols which is a breach of foundation policy takes away from the atmosphere, these people will be tribunaled etc and provides a grander roleplay environment, if they aren't tribunaled, that's the foundation for you, we aren't GOC who thinks every human life should be protected wholeheartedly (This is why we have D-Class and GOC dont), security is our priority duty, and should be dealt with within a roleplay capacity. Making this a staff rule just will provide minging civs more loopholes to use to get around getting killed etc.

 

[Kito]

I believe that this should be left to in-character policies, the code of Ethics provides protections for non-hostile GOIs, and this in itself includes the civilian populous. I think taking away the RP aspect of a foundation member killing a civilian in the base without undertaking proper protocols which is a breach of foundation policy takes away from the atmosphere, these people will be tribunaled etc and provides a grander roleplay environment, if they aren't tribunaled, that's the foundation for you, we aren't GOC who thinks every human life should be protected wholeheartedly (This is why we have D-Class and GOC dont), security is our priority duty, and should be dealt with within a roleplay capacity. Making this a staff rule just will provide minging civs more loopholes to use to get around getting killed etc.

The entire purpose of this rule clarification would not outright prevent Civs from being killed, but would specify unarmed, non-hostile civs are not to be KOS'd until an appropriate RP reason presents itself.

The Foundation DOES protect civilians, hence the name Secure. Contain. Protect. Obviously they don't go to the same lengths as GOC, but they are also not direct sociopaths that like killing the innocent for fun when the server rules justify it. The same way a civilian on surface, even if they know about XYZZY, cant or shouldn't be immediately killed.

Another good indicator that this rule should exist is the existance of amnestics as a mechanic on the server. They exist for situations specifically like this one, where a civilian enters the site, is detained, amnesticated, and returned to surface with an investigation launched by SOP.

Of course the Foundation would still kill civilians if they are armed, actively hacking, or are presenting themselves in a hostile manner in some way, like saying they have a hostage. But this rule wouldnt protect those civilians from being KOS; Only the ones who are actively trying to RP or at least are acting in an RP conducive way.

In regard to the "Roleplay aspect of Foundation breaking protocol and killing a civilian", I dont believe that is roleplay in any way, shape, or form. It is simply RDM. When a civilian is doing something that doesnt warrant being shot(yes, trespassing doesnt warrant being killed!), they should obviously not be shot IC.

Not only would this rule bolster IC RP for the Foundation, it could allow Rangers and the Mayor to imprison or detain Civilians who trespass into the site, thus allowing not only better server health, but for actual, non-intrusive surface RP. Additionally, if no Rangers or Mayors are on, you can turn them into the UN for holding.

This clarification would not allow for a loophole to be made, since it would only protect non-hostile civilians from being KOS'd, and if a civilian decides to pull a gun while being cuffed or detained, it will only be something they can access on the surface, such as a pistol or SMG, and they still only have half the effective health of any on-site personnel aside from non-combatives or lower-level GSD.

 

[Hypnotoad]

In regard to the "Roleplay aspect of Foundation breaking protocol and killing a civilian", I dont believe that is roleplay in any way, shape, or form. It is simply RDM. When a civilian is doing something that doesnt warrant being shot(yes, trespassing doesnt warrant being killed!), they should obviously not be shot IC.

I am just going to finish up my opinion on this suggestion by talking a little further on this. I have to disagree, for example, a d-class escapes d-block and is found in a random hallway, and the security who finds this individual decides to terminate them on the spot. This action goes against Foundation Policy and would be handled through their arrest due to breaching such laws in place. They decide to supersede the policies in place, to me this is similar to civilian interactions. A civilian has climbed their way through a restricted ventilation system of a military installation, this civilian is found in a random hallway in HCZ. The security who comes across them decides at the moment the best course of action is to terminate them on the spot for site security, this is in breach of foundation policy and would be handled by the correct authorities. Adding rules to constantly protect people in certain situations not only limits the RP possibilities of each situation but begins to become steps towards making the CoC and CoE irrelevant, IA irrelevant and Tribunals irrelevant if everything is a staff rule. Just my opinion, I've enjoyed this debate .

Code of Ethics Section:

1.09 - Civilian Protection​

"Civilians (i.e. Journalists, Arms Dealers or Peace Officers) finding themselves under the context of the foundation (either by operations amid the civilian population or a civilian finding themselves on Foundation Property). Are subject to all humanitarian rights of treatment.

Civilians are to not be harmed unless they find themselves subject to the 1.07 exclusion of the Code of Ethics. Civilians who refuse to comply with reasonable directions to stop fleeing from security personnel may be injured to allow their capture.

Hostile Civilians that the Foundation finds to be a threat, may be terminated should they present an immediate danger to life. However, Their body shall not be Desecrated.

Civilians may have their property confiscated and they may only have amnestics applied to them if necessary. In the event a civilian takes a photograph of a Foundation member within Site-65, the Foundation member in question has full authority to confiscate and/or destroy that civilian's camera."

 

[Kito]

I am just going to finish up my opinion on this suggestion by talking a little further on this. I have to disagree, for example, a d-class escapes d-block and is found in a random hallway, and the security who finds this individual decides to terminate them on the spot. This action goes against Foundation Policy and would be handled through their arrest due to breaching such laws in place. They decide to supersede the policies in place, to me this is similar to civilian interactions. A civilian has climbed their way through a restricted ventilation system of a military installation, this civilian is found in a random hallway in HCZ. The security who comes across them decides at the moment the best course of action is to terminate them on the spot for site security, this is in breach of foundation policy and would be handled by the correct authorities. Adding rules to constantly protect people in certain situations not only limits the RP possibilities of each situation but begins to become steps towards making the CoC and CoE irrelevant, IA irrelevant and Tribunals irrelevant if everything is a staff rule. Just my opinion, I've enjoyed this debate .

Code of Ethics Section:

1.09 - Civilian Protection​

"Civilians (i.e. Journalists, Arms Dealers or Peace Officers) finding themselves under the context of the foundation (either by operations amid the civilian population or a civilian finding themselves on Foundation Property). Are subject to all humanitarian rights of treatment.

Civilians are to not be harmed unless they find themselves subject to the 1.07 exclusion of the Code of Ethics. Civilians who refuse to comply with reasonable directions to stop fleeing from security personnel may be injured to allow their capture.

Hostile Civilians that the Foundation finds to be a threat, may be terminated should they present an immediate danger to life. However, Their body shall not be Desecrated.

Civilians may have their property confiscated and they may only have amnestics applied to them if necessary. In the event a civilian takes a photograph of a Foundation member within Site-65, the Foundation member in question has full authority to confiscate and/or destroy that civilian's camera."

I'm not going to debate with you further since you are just ignoring each and every statementjust to make it seem as though a rule suggestion that simulates RP does the opposite and 'nullifies' the CoC/CoE by existing, which is just ridiculous.

If you can't understand that the RP scenario ends as soon as someone kills the other, then you are obviously not capable of RP.

 

[Blackknight95]

Suggestion Response

---

Hi Kito,

Thanks for taking the time to make a suggestion

This is already how it works, you should not be KOSing surface jobs unless they are actively performing a hostile action.

Mercer​