Denied Subtle Visual Effect Over Vents Entrance, To Indicate Presence In Vents Entrance (By Absence Of)

This suggestion has been denied and will not receive development.
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What does this suggestion change/add/remove:

Add a slight, very subtle visual effect (Subtle to the point where you can't just immediately look for a second and see if it's there, you need to really be looking for it) that resembles ventilation exhaust (Stuff like dust, maybe a little smoke, etc.), directly above the surface vents entrance into Foundation - This effect should persist and only be visible if there are no players inside that vent entrance (and only the vents entrance area from the opening up until the first TP, not like, the whole of the vents system). If even one player enters the vent entrance and stays in that area, the effect will fade away, only returning when there is no longer anyone inside the vents entrance.

Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?:

This is this currently active suggestion from doped, on trying to create a rule to prevent Foundation from camping inside the surface vents - But essentially tackles the issue raised in that thread in a different way; Rather than outright making it against server rules, instead make it completely impractical to do so in a mechanical way, by having a tell for whether or not the vents entrance is occupied by anyone at that present moment.

Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):

  • Gives raiding GOIs fairer and potentially better chance of a successful raid, if and when they choose to do so - With a mechanism that requires careful inspection of the environment to determine whether or not it's safe to proceed, encouraging strategic and tactical gameplay.

  • Makes being in surface vents for a prolonged period of time for any reason whatsoever impractical, due to there being a tell - Which discourages Nu-7/DEA from camping vents in advance of a suspected raid, in favour of more conventional and less generally frowned-upon tactics; As a result not only reducing grief from GOIs, but also potentially reducing the amount of staff sits related to this occurring in cases where it would be metagaming, for example. My understanding of raid procedure is that you want to be in vents for as minimal a time as possible anyway, so kinda this impacts raiding GOIs minimally? Just giving them another reason to keep their vent entrance procedure as streamlined as possible. But I understand that there is still a negative effect on GOIs.

  • Ease of implementation? - At least on the detection side; I imagine that the detection side of this could be implemented the same way the 096 motion detector thing is, but unsure about the visual effect.

  • Something for Parawatch to create conspiracies about; May generate RP - THE CANADIAN MILITARY ARE PUMPING CHEMICALS INTO THE ATMOSPHERE AND MAKING US ALL GO CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:

  • DEA/Nu7 no longer feasibly able to sit in vents ahead of a raid and ambush them - This isn't something we should be encouraging; Literally the thing the suggestion is targeted at.
  • This point is different to the referenced prior suggestion, as this would also serve as a hindrance to raiding GOIs for the duration they are in the vents entrance. I did specify that it should be subtle enough that you can just tell by quickly looking, but that doesn't mean Nu7/DEA on surface can't still be able to tell if vents is occupied from far away; Which would mean F has more information on who is in vents. Ideally, you would counter this by having them be distracted by a Main Gate team going first; But this is not always possible for raids and a lot of the time it is just a vents team - Additionally, DEA/Nu7 may also just adopt the tactic of "If there's CI at main gate, one person look at and check the exhaust from watchtower to see if they're in vents," but to be honest, if there's people at the main gate, F usually assume there's other members of the raiding party coming in through vents, anyway. What this may nerf the worst, is DCs - Although for CI, is 2 people max and they can just try and go through vents as quickly as possible.

    Additionally, it might be feasible for raiding GOIs to adopt the tactic of "Hey, every now and then, have someone just go and enter vents, but then immediately come back out, to trigger the effect disappearing and cause false alarm within F", Although entering the vents does count as initiating a raid, so I think there should be some discussion about moving the start point of a raid to allow for this tactic to be put in place - So that you can cause reasonable doubt about whether or not there is actually a raid taking place. However, that might be deemed unfair for F, because then you're reducing the reliability of that information for them and ultimately making raiding easier for GOIs. ...Uhhh... To that I just say, ah well. Stopping a raid has two components, at the surface (ideally before vents) and inside F itself.
  • May encourage jobs that can't raid, to raid. Or other poor forms of raiding such as minge MC&D raids - I can sort of see it, but at the same time, if they were going to do that because of this, my argument is that they were going to be of that disposition anyway? Like, this doesn't stop the rules from applying to them... This is not a strong argument against this, imo.

  • Not relevant to US server, US has a policy that prevents this, etc. - ...I mean... Yeah. You have a policy against camping vents. Sure. How well is that enforced? Surely you guys can at least see that making it mechanically impractical altogether would be better than just taping it over and hoping it stays enforced all the time, right? Plus you could probably then just remove the policy as it becomes redundant as a result. I don't see why you wouldn't want this, it's better than a ruling change, right? Listen, sometimes you do dumb things that end up having changes made that affect us in bad ways, can we have our turn, please? Thank you :whistle:

  • False positives/Might not be usable by everyone - Yeeeeeeeeah, so... Since this would be a visual effect, it would likely be subject to any bugs or visual glitches that could cause false positives with observers - And may also be subject to like the performance improvement toggle things where like, if you turn the related thing off, that's it. You can't use this feature and are therefore at a disadvantage. Ideally you would want this to like be simple and not be as impactful on performance as possible, but... That's sadly not always guaranteeable. I understand if this is the reason why this gets denied.

  • Dev time - Might actually not even be possible or worth doing; I mean, it's better than a ruling change, but... Yeah, I can see how having this be a thing for devs to do might not be worth their time, just to patch over a small thing.

Potential Arguments Against Implementing Your Suggestion & Rebuttals To Them:

  • Yes they do, regardless of whether or not their leadership tells them not to do it. Call a sit? Sure thing. My experience with sits where people have been blatantly breaking a rule like backspawning have been met with the response of "We can't do anything about it because there's not enough evidence" and I see a lot of the same for other people as well. I mean yes, that's when you escalate it to a complaint, but... Egghhhh... Eh. Wouldn't it be better to just try and stamp it out entirely at the root, like this?
  • What IC reason do you have to sit in the vent and jump raiding GOIs other than "Clearly they're gonna MR soon?" That is not a valid roleplay reason and not something that should be encouraged.
  • I have not been in CI since I was removed just under a month ago now as of writing, following a disagreement with CI leadership. I did since join GOC, but have participated in few MRs before our relations went back to Neutral - None of which ran into campers as described. While in CI, I did experience Main Raids that were intercepted by Nu-7 camping vents. While this is disallowed by Nu-7 leadership anyway, It's still not something that should be happening or otherwise encouraged and doesn't really affect me at present, anyway. I just saw a solution to a problem people seem to be having and wondered how feasible it was. This response is a cope response, over people being sick of it and wanting you to respect the gameplay loop. Kindly sit down.
  • Ah yes, grenades... The most reliable thing in the world that definitely stick around in your weapon reel after being dispensed, piling into the vehicle, driving up to the vent entrance and getting out. Even then, the grenade is not guaranteed to hit because funny GMod physics.
  • Well they don't get to camp vents either, now. ...What exactly is your point, here? You can also make suggestions about reducing the ways people camp. Go for it.
  • And what if the raid has someone that doesn't have access to that? Those are roles paywalled, locked behind VIP ranks. You are also forgetting about the existence of DC raids, which don't have a wall of health to put in front to tank an ambush.
  • You did not read the suggestion.
Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:

Different approach to tackling a problem someone else has raised. I think my point is fairly clear. Instead of just making it against server rules, make it impractical to be in the vents for any length of time. Really, this is just my response to the prior mentioned suggestion, turned into an actual, fleshed out suggestion. I don't really think I need to say much more. This should be more savoury to everyone that dislikes that idea, but obviously, not as savoury to everyone that likes it (Since this does negatively affect raiding GOIs in a way).

...What do you think?
 
and yes, i read the thing emila.

Additionally, it might be feasible for raiding GOIs to adopt the tactic of "Hey, every now and then, have someone just go and enter vents, but then immediately come back out, to trigger the effect disappearing and cause false alarm within F", Although entering the vents does count as initiating a raid, so I think there should be some discussion about moving the start point of a raid to allow for this tactic to be put in place - So that you can cause reasonable doubt about whether or not there is actually a raid taking place. However, that might be deemed unfair for F, because then you're reducing the reliability of that information for them and ultimately making raiding easier for GOIs. ...Uhhh... To that I just say, ah well. Stopping a raid has two components, at the surface (ideally before vents) and inside F itself.
sadly yes - this is a raid and i dont think theres any chance this will get changed.

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:

  • DEA/Nu7 no longer feasibly able to sit in vents ahead of a raid and ambush them - This isn't something we should be encouraging; Literally the thing the suggestion is targeted at.
  • This point is different to the referenced prior suggestion, as this would also serve as a hindrance to raiding GOIs for the duration they are in the vents entrance. I did specify that it should be subtle enough that you can just tell by quickly looking, but that doesn't mean Nu7/DEA on surface can't still be able to tell if vents is occupied from far away; Which would mean F has more information on who is in vents. Ideally, you would counter this by having them be distracted by a Main Gate team going first; But this is not always possible for raids and a lot of the time it is just a vents team - Additionally, DEA/Nu7 may also just adopt the tactic of "If there's CI at main gate, one person look at and check the exhaust from watchtower to see if they're in vents," but to be honest, if there's people at the main gate, F usually assume there's other members of the raiding party coming in through vents, anyway. What this may nerf the worst, is DCs - Although for CI, is 2 people max and they can just try and go through vents as quickly as possible.
my thoughts on this:
1707560737107.png
 
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+support
-to shorten dev work time we could use some of the motion sensors in 096 and add a screen in LCZ camera room that shows when people are going in! Which would definitely make the cameras way more used
so any kind of camera screen is like, not a very performant thing. it's likely why we won't see any camera systems in EZ or FL2 following the rework because devs are kinda loathe to put camera screens or anything anywhere. You'd be better off with like a light or something. But then that kind of ignores the subtlety part of my suggestion as you could just post a DEA there and effectively nerf all GOI raids - as opposed to actually having to focus on something that's difficult to see.
 
-support

not necessary
-Support
I just don't see any real problem that actually takes place in game, or how this would fix such a problem that doesn't exist anyways. Waste of time
hmmm
-support lol throw a nade or prefire
-Support
Copium Cat GIF - Copium Cat - Discover & Share GIFs
i think it's rather telling how your arguments changed here, once they're actually addressed. would be nicer and less disingenuous if you could just admit you don't have a good reason and just don't want people to have anything. it's attitudes like this that make me ideate whether or not i would like the suggestions subforum closed entirely. this completely ignores accounts of the contrary, is not constructive, doesn't help or contribute to anything. the sort of stuff i'm talking about when i say the community doesn't deserve nice things.
I'd like to point out we only ever camped vents on UK if your raid was called out beforehand.
+Support regardless, makes my life easier.
now that i've slept, i think i can vaguely recount the one time it's happened for me - this was like... just over a month ago, back when i was in CI? and it was... sufficiently late at night, i think around 11. my recollection is: there was like 8 of us, so a vents team only. we fill the vodnik, drive to vents without any issue, i don't think anyone saw anything, didn't see any callouts from other CI about any DEA or Nu7, i think there was like... if there was anyone in compound, it was like one guy, might be remembering that wrong. anyway, we get to vents entrance and start heading in, instant we do, there's someone in there. we kill them, but we still get the clip and try and get staff involved anyway.

i'm also not sure why but for some reason, i remember the nu7 in the vents being you. i think that's probably the least accurate part of my memory there, it might have been a DEA. might have even been a DEA disguised as MC&D, which is something i've also seen once. it's a very fuzzy and not details-accurate memory. my point here is that i think the likelihood of metagaming or w/e, while definitely not 100%, is probably also nowhere near 0% either.
 
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holymilk

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Nov 12, 2023
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hmmm


i think it's rather telling how your arguments changed here, once they're actually addressed. would be nicer and less disingenuous if you could just admit you don't have a good reason and just don't want people to have anything. it's attitudes like this that make me ideate whether or not i would like the suggestions subforum closed entirely. this completely ignores accounts of the contrary, is not constructive, doesn't help or contribute to anything. the sort of stuff i'm talking about when i say the community doesn't deserve nice things.

now that i've slept, i think i can vaguely recount the one time it's happened for me - this was like... just over a month ago, back when i was in CI? and it was... sufficiently late at night, i think around 11. my recollection is: there was like 8 of us, so a vents team only. we fill the vodnik, drive to vents without any issue, i don't think anyone saw anything, didn't see any callouts from other CI about any DEA or Nu7, i think there was like... if there was anyone in compound, it was like one guy, might be remembering that wrong. anyway, we get to vents entrance and start heading in, instant we do, there's someone in there. we kill them, but we still get the clip and try and get staff involved anyway.

i'm also not sure why but for some reason, i remember the nu7 in the vents being you. i think that's probably the least accurate part of my memory there, it might have been a DEA. might have even been a DEA disguised as MC&D, which is something i've also seen once. it's a very fuzzy and not details-accurate memory. my point here is that i think the likelihood of metagaming or w/e, while definitely not 100%, is probably also nowhere near 0% either.
There are a lot of good things that can be added, that scp rp deserves, this ain't one of them chief. This just piggybacks a current, unpopular, and irrelevant (I can also put it down as a cope) suggestion. Rather than wanting to add a new rule that restricts a large part of the player base, instead wants to waste dev time when much more relevant and better implementations are waiting to be added. Yea, unnecessary, plus CI has all the tools to combat this, that you already listed, and with how lush VIPs are these days, aren't an issue for them to use their OP classes every time, DCs can improvise by already having a disguise so they aren't killed right away.
 
see there we go, this is better. you did it
This just piggybacks a current, unpopular, and irrelevant (I can also put it down as a cope) suggestion.
it's approaches the problem in a different way, as you literally admit in the next sentence
Rather than wanting to add a new rule that restricts a large part of the player base, instead wants to waste dev time when much more relevant and better implementations are waiting to be added. Yea, unnecessary
what? like, let's boil down the development process here:
  1. create and test suitable, subtle visual effect for this purpose
  2. set up area detection at vents entrance, ala 096 chamber motion detector
  3. place effect, have visibility be tied to that area detection (visible only if no-one in it, so the opposite of the 096 motion detector basically)
i don't believe this to be obstructive enough that it would reasonably set back any major projects. the largest concerns with implementation are the actual effect itself and whether it will work imo. this isn't like... a new mechanic or a new SCP, w/e.

the bigger concern probably is with balance and working out how this will impact all the gameplay loops this intersects with - which is arguably still a lot better than creating a rule to restrict the playerbase, as you said. the only reason you believe this is is unnecessary is because you have the perspective that this is just not a problem that people deal with and needs fixing, which as i said, ignores accounts to the contrary.
plus CI has all the tools to combat this, that you already listed
working and readily available tools. that's the hang-up here. now obviously one tool i haven't talked about is the upcoming 22415 thing where they could just break into helper dimension just to avoid anyone camping vents entrance, but that's kinda overkill. but let's very quickly go over what i said, just to humour you.

grenades are temperamental with how long they stay in your possession. a bug? yes. sure. how about actually using the thing in the situation, then or you could even have the juggernaut use the grenade that they spawn with (as long as you don't give them a weapon upgrade beforehand since you HAVE to keep your gun out the entire time after using it)? how reliable is it, do you think, that a grenade can take out (or at least reasonably reduce to low health + bleeding) some gremlin sitting in the side in the vents? because that L-section is like, kinda weird imo. especially in terms of funky grenade physics. i think it will reach, sure, but like this is like... i mean again, ci/goc should not have to flush out nu7/dea from the vents in the first place, imo.

which brings me to
with how lush VIPs are these days, aren't an issue for them to use their OP classes every time
for starters, VIP jobs definitely aren't OP. juggernaut and TB by themselves go down easy; it's more about how they're used and what tactics are being deployed. like if the TB is johnson for example, then you're just not killing TB. it's not happening. guy is simply a walking legend. i'm not sure how he got to that level of skill, but the point there is that it's pure skill. i've tried playing TB tactics as goc thaumo, which is basically similar except you get 200 hp max and the realty bending swep is... it's a beast, for sure. you don't master that overnight. then also stuff like having good pocket medic on jugg, etc. like yes, either TB that knows what they're doing, or a jugg and pocket medic will easily get dea/nu7 in vents, out of vents, they will make them very dead, very quickly. i still maintain that that shouldn't need to be the case in the first place. it's an unnecessary disruption to their gameplay loop. if ci/goc KNOW that they're there ahead of time with the addition of this though, then they can actually just do away with it. you've stated your issue is more with devs working on this over like, literally anything else and i will get back to that point
DCs can improvise by already having a disguise so they aren't killed right away.
honestly, niox's reply to you before is my sentiment here - grabbing a civi disguise doesn't make you invisible to nu7/dea. they're not going to care who it is that jumps into vents, they're just going to KOS them, especially if they appear armed.


ok so back to your whole hangup about this pushing other dev things back or devs focusing on this instead of other implementations.
this doesn't really help my argument much, but have you seen the dev tracker (and that's just the public one, there's a separate private one)? priority is like... decided internally. i'm pretty sure this would be like a low priority thing that wouldn't take... not like no effort - there'd definitely be some tihngs to getting this to work, this isn't just like changing a value or whatever, things need to be created, placed, tested, etc. it's a feature to patch over one problem and when it's put like that... sure, i see it, but like saying this would get in the way of active projects like for example, CI neuro controller, is a little wild to me. i don't think anyone's going to go "oh hey, i could be working on this big and cool thing, but instead i will decide to work on this other little thing that affects a small subset of people." i mean sure, i imagine that everyone's not all focusing on one thing, stuff gets done in places and the workload is scattered - but... it's just not a good take imo. i just don't see that. like it's all up to the development team what gets done and when.

on top of that, gatekeeping this from an outside perspective with like the stance of "devs shouldn't be doing this because they have a bajillion other things that they should be doing first" which like... as someone currently trying to work out which is happening with an ongoing bug with a major and frequently used thing that i reported a month ago, i get - but in these circumstances, are just not it.
 
did something thinking about this -
sadly yes - this is a raid and i dont think theres any chance this will get changed.
i do kinda agree, but i think like, if this suggestion is ok, then it should at least be discussed with SL to move the vents entrance raid start to when you actually like hit the teleport inside that vents entrance - if and when the feature is complete and actually in

because then there's like... CI can't just sit in that spot, because it'd be a disadvantage to them - the issue would purely be with being able to create false positives and doubt when it comes to F information on raids. i think you honestly do stand a decent chance of being able to get this done.

i also spoke to a CT member about this and they thought that raid start was already at teleport trigger - after like a bit of discussion, they seemed to be receptive to the idea, although that specific person won't be at the next CT meeting; i do think that ruling change should be raised in relevance to this
 
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i think it's rather telling how your arguments changed here, once they're actually addressed. would be nicer and less disingenuous if you could just admit you don't have a good reason and just don't want people to have anything. it's attitudes like this that make me ideate whether or not i would like the suggestions subforum closed entirely. this completely ignores accounts of the contrary, is not constructive, doesn't help or contribute to anything. the sort of stuff i'm talking about when i say the community doesn't deserve nice things.
"I'm sorry, but I'm only an AI language model, I am unable of making a constructive argument against this forums suggestion"
 
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