Trial Game Master
DonatorWhat does this suggestion change/add/remove:
Add a slight, very subtle visual effect (Subtle to the point where you can't just immediately look for a second and see if it's there, you need to really be looking for it) that resembles ventilation exhaust (Stuff like dust, maybe a little smoke, etc.), directly above the surface vents entrance into Foundation - This effect should persist and only be visible if there are no players inside that vent entrance (and only the vents entrance area from the opening up until the first TP, not like, the whole of the vents system). If even one player enters the vent entrance and stays in that area, the effect will fade away, only returning when there is no longer anyone inside the vents entrance.Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?:
This is this currently active suggestion from doped, on trying to create a rule to prevent Foundation from camping inside the surface vents - But essentially tackles the issue raised in that thread in a different way; Rather than outright making it against server rules, instead make it completely impractical to do so in a mechanical way, by having a tell for whether or not the vents entrance is occupied by anyone at that present moment.Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):
- Gives raiding GOIs fairer and potentially better chance of a successful raid, if and when they choose to do so - With a mechanism that requires careful inspection of the environment to determine whether or not it's safe to proceed, encouraging strategic and tactical gameplay.
- Makes being in surface vents for a prolonged period of time for any reason whatsoever impractical, due to there being a tell - Which discourages Nu-7/DEA from camping vents in advance of a suspected raid, in favour of more conventional and less generally frowned-upon tactics; As a result not only reducing grief from GOIs, but also potentially reducing the amount of staff sits related to this occurring in cases where it would be metagaming, for example. My understanding of raid procedure is that you want to be in vents for as minimal a time as possible anyway, so kinda this impacts raiding GOIs minimally? Just giving them another reason to keep their vent entrance procedure as streamlined as possible. But I understand that there is still a negative effect on GOIs.
- Ease of implementation? - At least on the detection side; I imagine that the detection side of this could be implemented the same way the 096 motion detector thing is, but unsure about the visual effect.
- Something for Parawatch to create conspiracies about; May generate RP - THE CANADIAN MILITARY ARE PUMPING CHEMICALS INTO THE ATMOSPHERE AND MAKING US ALL GO CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Possible Negatives of the suggestion:
- DEA/Nu7 no longer feasibly able to sit in vents ahead of a raid and ambush them - This isn't something we should be encouraging; Literally the thing the suggestion is targeted at.
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This point is different to the referenced prior suggestion, as this would also serve as a hindrance to raiding GOIs for the duration they are in the vents entrance. I did specify that it should be subtle enough that you can just tell by quickly looking, but that doesn't mean Nu7/DEA on surface can't still be able to tell if vents is occupied from far away; Which would mean F has more information on who is in vents. Ideally, you would counter this by having them be distracted by a Main Gate team going first; But this is not always possible for raids and a lot of the time it is just a vents team - Additionally, DEA/Nu7 may also just adopt the tactic of "If there's CI at main gate, one person look at and check the exhaust from watchtower to see if they're in vents," but to be honest, if there's people at the main gate, F usually assume there's other members of the raiding party coming in through vents, anyway. What this may nerf the worst, is DCs - Although for CI, is 2 people max and they can just try and go through vents as quickly as possible.
Additionally, it might be feasible for raiding GOIs to adopt the tactic of "Hey, every now and then, have someone just go and enter vents, but then immediately come back out, to trigger the effect disappearing and cause false alarm within F", Although entering the vents does count as initiating a raid, so I think there should be some discussion about moving the start point of a raid to allow for this tactic to be put in place - So that you can cause reasonable doubt about whether or not there is actually a raid taking place. However, that might be deemed unfair for F, because then you're reducing the reliability of that information for them and ultimately making raiding easier for GOIs. ...Uhhh... To that I just say, ah well. Stopping a raid has two components, at the surface (ideally before vents) and inside F itself. - May encourage jobs that can't raid, to raid. Or other poor forms of raiding such as minge MC&D raids - I can sort of see it, but at the same time, if they were going to do that because of this, my argument is that they were going to be of that disposition anyway? Like, this doesn't stop the rules from applying to them... This is not a strong argument against this, imo.
- Not relevant to US server, US has a policy that prevents this, etc. - ...I mean... Yeah. You have a policy against camping vents. Sure. How well is that enforced? Surely you guys can at least see that making it mechanically impractical altogether would be better than just taping it over and hoping it stays enforced all the time, right? Plus you could probably then just remove the policy as it becomes redundant as a result. I don't see why you wouldn't want this, it's better than a ruling change, right? Listen, sometimes you do dumb things that end up having changes made that affect us in bad ways, can we have our turn, please? Thank you
- False positives/Might not be usable by everyone - Yeeeeeeeeah, so... Since this would be a visual effect, it would likely be subject to any bugs or visual glitches that could cause false positives with observers - And may also be subject to like the performance improvement toggle things where like, if you turn the related thing off, that's it. You can't use this feature and are therefore at a disadvantage. Ideally you would want this to like be simple and not be as impactful on performance as possible, but... That's sadly not always guaranteeable. I understand if this is the reason why this gets denied.
- Dev time - Might actually not even be possible or worth doing; I mean, it's better than a ruling change, but... Yeah, I can see how having this be a thing for devs to do might not be worth their time, just to patch over a small thing.
Potential Arguments Against Implementing Your Suggestion & Rebuttals To Them:
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Yes they do, regardless of whether or not their leadership tells them not to do it. Call a sit? Sure thing. My experience with sits where people have been blatantly breaking a rule like backspawning have been met with the response of "We can't do anything about it because there's not enough evidence" and I see a lot of the same for other people as well. I mean yes, that's when you escalate it to a complaint, but... Egghhhh... Eh. Wouldn't it be better to just try and stamp it out entirely at the root, like this?
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What IC reason do you have to sit in the vent and jump raiding GOIs other than "Clearly they're gonna MR soon?" That is not a valid roleplay reason and not something that should be encouraged.
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I have not been in CI since I was removed just under a month ago now as of writing, following a disagreement with CI leadership. I did since join GOC, but have participated in few MRs before our relations went back to Neutral - None of which ran into campers as described. While in CI, I did experience Main Raids that were intercepted by Nu-7 camping vents. While this is disallowed by Nu-7 leadership anyway, It's still not something that should be happening or otherwise encouraged and doesn't really affect me at present, anyway. I just saw a solution to a problem people seem to be having and wondered how feasible it was. This response is a cope response, over people being sick of it and wanting you to respect the gameplay loop. Kindly sit down.
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Ah yes, grenades... The most reliable thing in the world that definitely stick around in your weapon reel after being dispensed, piling into the vehicle, driving up to the vent entrance and getting out. Even then, the grenade is not guaranteed to hit because funny GMod physics.
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Well they don't get to camp vents either, now. ...What exactly is your point, here? You can also make suggestions about reducing the ways people camp. Go for it.
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And what if the raid has someone that doesn't have access to that? Those are roles paywalled, locked behind VIP ranks. You are also forgetting about the existence of DC raids, which don't have a wall of health to put in front to tank an ambush.
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You did not read the suggestion.
Different approach to tackling a problem someone else has raised. I think my point is fairly clear. Instead of just making it against server rules, make it impractical to be in the vents for any length of time. Really, this is just my response to the prior mentioned suggestion, turned into an actual, fleshed out suggestion. I don't really think I need to say much more. This should be more savoury to everyone that dislikes that idea, but obviously, not as savoury to everyone that likes it (Since this does negatively affect raiding GOIs in a way).
...What do you think?
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