What do you see more, Roleplay or Ruleplay?
- Thread starter Charles "Ze" Whitmee
- Start date
As it stands we're at a bit of a standoff between both. The further we go into roleplay, the less stability we have. The further we go into ruleplay, the less agency we have. We're doing our best to find that balance though right now there are just a few too many strange rulings that seem either unfair or unrealistic, along with a somewhat rule-abusive playerbase.
Strange rulings are usually due to people who keep abusing and skirting the rules to the point where things have to be pinpoint specific and then when we specify things to the letter, it sometimes no longer feels realistic for the setting/atmosphere/theme we're going for.
The constant war here is focused on trying to find that balance and I don't think it will ever end, but the least we could do is stop and smell the roses now and then. Make sure to enjoy the game lads. The way this community and server are setup are meant to be entertaining and engaging, don't let the dud eggs ruin the whole breakfast.
Edit: I want to clarify that going further into roleplay is not always a good thing via my own definition of it here - "Going further into roleplay" means relying less on rules for conducting actions and decisions. If every player had good intentions and knew the game perfectly then we wouldn't need rules whatsoever- maybe just guidelines, but obviously this is not the case.
Strange rulings are usually due to people who keep abusing and skirting the rules to the point where things have to be pinpoint specific and then when we specify things to the letter, it sometimes no longer feels realistic for the setting/atmosphere/theme we're going for.
The constant war here is focused on trying to find that balance and I don't think it will ever end, but the least we could do is stop and smell the roses now and then. Make sure to enjoy the game lads. The way this community and server are setup are meant to be entertaining and engaging, don't let the dud eggs ruin the whole breakfast.
Edit: I want to clarify that going further into roleplay is not always a good thing via my own definition of it here - "Going further into roleplay" means relying less on rules for conducting actions and decisions. If every player had good intentions and knew the game perfectly then we wouldn't need rules whatsoever- maybe just guidelines, but obviously this is not the case.
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Ruleplay based on the lack of structure holding up the roleplay, Yes.
Roleplay based on the lack of structure holding up the ruleplay, No.
It will always be evident that roleplay lacks the efficacy to function on its own with complete autonomy, granted, that's an impossible outcome to some degree. However, what isn't impossible is the balance between power given and taken especially for the parties in game to moderate more closely or harshly. So that rules don't overshadow departmental jobs.
Roleplay based on the lack of structure holding up the ruleplay, No.
It will always be evident that roleplay lacks the efficacy to function on its own with complete autonomy, granted, that's an impossible outcome to some degree. However, what isn't impossible is the balance between power given and taken especially for the parties in game to moderate more closely or harshly. So that rules don't overshadow departmental jobs.
I think the problem is the inability or refusal of staff to deal with rule-abusive players in any permanent way. Stacked NITRP? Ban them. Huge list of warns? Ban them.
The server allows too many players that just refuse to roleplay, and at least to me, it feels like its purely because of business reasons. Not that is is staff's fault, as they're just enforcing the set of punishments they've been given, but when there's players that CLEARLY are not here to RP? Why are they allowed to stay?
Only Super+ can auth permabans and NL+ for blacklists, so some of that is just availability. I personally believe the other part is kinda like a batman-code thing, if we get into the practice of banning people who have extreme warn lists then what happens when we meet someone ingame who says "I'm just not gonna follow the rules." Obviously if he doesnt believe that then we should just perma him too. Eventually the habit develops and we begin authing and asking for permas on people who seem like they may fit the criteria and that's just not a good route to go down. That sounds like it could be a stretch but I don't think it is.
The "process" keeps us from becoming complete tyrants- keeping in mind how far staff and SL already go when they need to act outside known practices. Our staff team is far from perfect and if they have that belief that they can ban anyone permanently that they deem as unwilling to RP then they may start making bombs out of sand, intentionally or not.
Of course, all permabans that don't fall under the punishment guidelines need to go through Supers+ but they can't be fielding those requests constantly either due to the slew of other things they need to keep an eye on so I wouldn't say that's a feasible idea either unfortunately.
In plain terms...
the code keeps us human.
Edit: Removed batman...
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You already have a built in system that regulates this. It's called a moral compass. If you're willfully holding yourself back from specific decisions, you're admitting fault to some degree. There's always a situation where it's better to remove a players access to the server and have them appeal it. Not to mention we have the right as a LLC to remove access from anyone at anytime. The only factor is who is pulling the trigger on these decisions and who isn't.
If you're questioning these decisions based on your own moral compass, maybe you shouldn't be in a staff position, generally speaking.
That said, I believe the quality of a player’s behavior is heavily influenced by the structure of the roleplay, rather than just their intentions. Without clear direction or structure, people will naturally gravitate toward what’s easiest or most fun, which is often at odds with the intended playstyle of the server. Strong structure is essential to guide players and ensure their actions align with the vision of the server.
Of course I'd admit fault, I'm not infallible. I have failed to handle situations correctly and I will recognize them and do better. There will also always be situations that I look back on and think "should I have just done this or this? Was this too much? Was this not enough?" Because ultimately every sit, every warn, and every ban have an effect on the player and indirectly on the playerbase. Simply removing everyone permanently over and over again is going to generate so much more resentment than we already see, so instead we should strive to give out reasonable responses.
You and Guardian both have a good point though. To contradict myself, the spirit of the rules tends to trump the rules themselves sometimes, which is why staff are given discretion to handle situations as needed so perhaps maybe we could be giving out more permas on players that have zero intent to contribute to the server.
As for server structure guiding player actions, we could do better in some areas like D-Block or Research perhaps, but a player is going to do what they are going to do. We have a pretty solid and intuitive outline for players to work with alongside multiple guides on how we operate (rules, handbooks, etc) , easy to access resources for appeals to any warns or bans or complaints on staff or player actions, and we teach our staff team to be more forgiving to the newbies and guide them on how we do things.
We can certainly do better but some people just suck, man.
I mean I guess over time more rule play inherently means a safety net. But at the same time you're chiseling away integrity for that safety net. Like when you think about it more rules that you add, the less integrity is that's holding up the basis of the the gameplay itself. Less RP that's involved in making in-game roles to regulate the less integrity there is.
I mean, and for all things considered, the direction that players follow is so lackluster and it's been lackluster. The only difference is like I've made in a previous post. The rose tinted goggles are melting off and the the initial appeal of the server for all the people that have stayed is wearing off, which is why it's very important that we cater to new players because the new players are what filling the gaps and the voids for the people that are leaving are already on their way out.
Community Manager
Group Moderator
Hello Everyone who has responded to this.
I appreciate all your responses and understand the frustration with Rule-play over roleplay, and respectfully, this is not on the staff half anymore, they have spent significant amount of hours trying to rework rules, and give more agency to the players in order to have more autonomy, however this 9 times out of 10 backfires, yet we still try to give it anyway, now staff do get at fault for treating everything as a rule violation when a sit is called and not looking at it and seeing if there is a need to handle this as a sit, but on the same coin, then the playerbase will be unhappy with staff inaction, this is a impossible to balance coin, I remember the days people would moan staff don't punish enough.
The staff team have to answer sits, as per their role, this feeds into "ruleplay" as the main aim of most people with ruleplay is to get you into a sit regardless of the outcome as a frustration on their part for X,Y or Z, this mainly occurs from a simple issue, people roleplay themselves and take their roleplay extremely serious, opening themselves up to significant frustration, thus causes anger and hatred, then this turns into constant sit reports and OOC "beef", this in turn leads to the "ruleplay" atmosphere, which is not easy for staff to sort.
Common issues "ruleplayed"
- Deep cover gets killed - always reports metagaming even if they did something stupid
- Player got arrested for IC rules, claims RDA because he wants to waste his jail time and piss off IA (ISD)
There are many more, however I just woke up and refuse to think any further.
The easiest solution to this, is frankly people need to stop roleplaying themselves, make a character, have fun and not treat this as CS:2 Ranked, that way people will loosen up and stop causing issues (Also stop trying to loophole rules).
In the end we are here to have fun and roleplay, not spend 8 hours a day taking sits because someone got upset they lost an engagement or what not and want staff to waste theirs and others time by having them appropriately investigate sits.
-- To tack onto mercy's point.
Staff can and do ban those with excessive warning history, though it does require SSL review as per our punishment guidelines which you can review here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xh2bTjUxxnMOv4i459_e2nZp6DoiM3AXnmFF7FkI5FI/edit?gid=0#gid=0
Kind Regards
Yeke
I appreciate all your responses and understand the frustration with Rule-play over roleplay, and respectfully, this is not on the staff half anymore, they have spent significant amount of hours trying to rework rules, and give more agency to the players in order to have more autonomy, however this 9 times out of 10 backfires, yet we still try to give it anyway, now staff do get at fault for treating everything as a rule violation when a sit is called and not looking at it and seeing if there is a need to handle this as a sit, but on the same coin, then the playerbase will be unhappy with staff inaction, this is a impossible to balance coin, I remember the days people would moan staff don't punish enough.
The staff team have to answer sits, as per their role, this feeds into "ruleplay" as the main aim of most people with ruleplay is to get you into a sit regardless of the outcome as a frustration on their part for X,Y or Z, this mainly occurs from a simple issue, people roleplay themselves and take their roleplay extremely serious, opening themselves up to significant frustration, thus causes anger and hatred, then this turns into constant sit reports and OOC "beef", this in turn leads to the "ruleplay" atmosphere, which is not easy for staff to sort.
Common issues "ruleplayed"
- Deep cover gets killed - always reports metagaming even if they did something stupid
- Player got arrested for IC rules, claims RDA because he wants to waste his jail time and piss off IA (ISD)
There are many more, however I just woke up and refuse to think any further.
The easiest solution to this, is frankly people need to stop roleplaying themselves, make a character, have fun and not treat this as CS:2 Ranked, that way people will loosen up and stop causing issues (Also stop trying to loophole rules).
In the end we are here to have fun and roleplay, not spend 8 hours a day taking sits because someone got upset they lost an engagement or what not and want staff to waste theirs and others time by having them appropriately investigate sits.
-- To tack onto mercy's point.
Staff can and do ban those with excessive warning history, though it does require SSL review as per our punishment guidelines which you can review here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xh2bTjUxxnMOv4i459_e2nZp6DoiM3AXnmFF7FkI5FI/edit?gid=0#gid=0
Kind Regards
Yeke
