Rule Suggestion CL4 Promotion application requirement equivalency.

[JasonTheCheesyGuy]

What does this suggestions change/add/remove:

This suggestion proposes that the following roles no longer require an application to be submitted, but may rather be promoted into by the relevant department heads.

- Internal Security Department Inspector
- Security Captain
- RSD Executive Researcher
- Medical Consultant
- External Affairs Special Agent
- Ethics Committee Assistant (Considered; But perhaps not wise.)
- Overseer Council Assistant (Considered; But perhaps not wise.)

This is to make the attainment of these ranks equal to the other CL4 positions. As it stands, the bar for gaining one of the above roles is much harder due to the added effort of writing an application and public scrutiny upon the promotion. As it stands, the following roles can already be promoted into without requiring a public application to be written;

- M.T.F. E11 Lt.
- M.T.F. Nu-7 Lt.
- M.T.F. A-1/O-1 Lt.
- GOC Lt.
- Chaos Insurgency DELCOM

Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?
The only threads regarding applications that I could locate had to do with Site-Command, or Site-Admin, and neither touched on the topic of the above roles.

Possible Positives of the suggestion:
- A significant increase in the amount of players that may attain and play these roles, solving the issue of their lacking presence upon site.
- More equivalency for roles that hold less OOC/In-RP authority, yet require more effort to be attained.

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:
- The lowering of public scrutiny for these roles may result in less quality control for those that play the roles.
- More rapid overturn of JCL4 positions.

Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:

This change will provide even playing ground between various CL4 positions, without causing issues that are not already present for M.T.F./GOC/CI. It just events out the playing field more. Why should an RSD Executive be required to write a full application and be subjected to public scrutiny for a role that has no meaningful IC authority beyond tests, and no OOC authority beyond the occasional job-ban, while at the same time other CL4 positions for regiments can be attained without any public scrutiny while holding more OOC authority over others' progression within their departments, and more IC capacity for wrongdoing?

 

[Niox]

-Support

 

[Emilia Foddg]

+Support to an extent
What people don't realise is that the newer crowds are somewhat averse to doing things like making forum accounts and such, with good reason, honestly - Honestly, if applications need to continue existing, they need to be accessible from in-game.

But I do also think that some of the junior CL4 positions don't really need as much vetting as they have, have overlap with departments that are really hurting in RP, atm.

I agree with Investigator, Captain, Exec, Special Agent and maybe Consultant. I do agree with the prospect that there needs to be significant vetting for all CL4 positions and that they need to be reasonably gated off - However, I feel like having two WL application positions per department (ex. SA, SC), while is definitely safer, yes - Feels unfriendly to newer people trying to get into the server. Even though these things absolutely should be gatekept, it does give this feel that we're a gated community. It's hard to reconcile, honestly.

 

[Acey]

I personally think CO promos need to be vetted because they influence a regiment, does that make sense? It's a level of responsibility now, you're a LT/MAJ/CPT, not an NCO.

You're a figurehead for the Reg!!!

Yeah we agree on that matter - I'm just saying that this is a matter that should still be handled internally rather than on the forums s'all.

A bit of bias on this but sometimes when someone has dogshit rep it can be influenced by factors not tied to their server behaviour / actions.

 

["Comet"/Shoobinshurt]

+Support

 

[Charles "Ze" Whitmee]

+Support

I believe the respective heads of a department should be able to promote anyone they deem fit into a Junior CL4 position.

However, whoever issued the promotion is fully responsible for vetting and ensuring the person is actually fit for the role, as they would with an applicant. Should they promote too hastily and issues arise, this is when SA would step in and issue punishments.
The only loss here is lack of community feedback, however that should always be treated with a grain of salt.

I believe this would be step towards having positions and methods of obtaining positions be fully in-character.

 

[Aurelius 'Fusilli']

- Support

The application system works just fine for Jr. CL4, its a system that allows the Department leads to understand if that person has atleast some kind of writing skill (which is quite needed for any CL4 position) and also adds the requirement of a LORE.
Lore is an extremely important part of a CL4 character, one of the higher ranks of the Foundation and therefore they need to have some kind of background. Moving on, applications are an extra requirement after having shown good work on site as the CL3 role below. For instance, a GSD SGT leading well C2s and hosting patrols, a Sr. Researcher writing good documents and tests, a Sr. Doctor completing good evaluations etc... The application is just an extra step that also makes the leap to CL4 feel more significant, and it is also significantily easier for department leads to sort through the candidates for CL4.

Oh and by the way, I for one believe that becoming a CL4 in a regiment is way harder than becoming a CL4 in a department, with promotion cooldowns, the limited slots etc... Going to end this here so the yapping stops

 

[JasonTheCheesyGuy]

My only worry is the safety that applications add, it allows staff members to review a person before they get CL4 access and it also generally allows for better control by SA/SC/Staff to look into bias and favoritism in promotions.

My main concern too, yep. But we already don't have that for MTF units, and as such I think it'll go fine.

What's stopping the SR CL4 from promoting loyalists into these jobs?

Nothing beyond Site-Admin/Site-Command supervision. But thats the same for MTF/CI/GOC. At most there is the rank cooldown within Regiments, but waiting a few days is hardly the difficult part if someone is aiming to be up to no good.

Yeah I do agree that the lore requirement for Jr CL4 applications is un-needed, though its almost never checked for most departments and doesn't have to bee too high quality.

I wish this wasn't true, but uh, yea. I read a lore background a few weeks back that was literally just "I trespassed, grabbed a 914 disguise and got promoted". For those stating this as a major reason to not support the change; I ask you to look through the existing character backgrounds and how detailed they are, and how often people use their backgrounds to RP. I won't deny that there are some who do; But the majority simply do not.

For example, when I was DoEA, if I saw a senior agent be active for ~2 weeks and posted an application for special agent they would get accepted, they didn't need a "great" application, just a good enough one that shows they understand what the role is about.

Now my opinion is that the roles above should stay the same. It's easier for department leads to determine who is actually capable of holding a CL4 position by reading their application rather than promoting them and hoping they do well (I don't know about the other departments but DEA looks more over the activity of the applicant rather than their application, although it is pretty important aswell).

I think you say the key points here yourself; The main determining factor for the promotion is how the current team sees the applicant. I imagine that is much the same within MTF's and GOI's. An Application, therefore, becomes more of an additional hassle than a benefit.

-Support
Do the opposite and require applications for the ones that don't have them.

The usual based Zen take. I don't disagree with the Sentiment; This suggestion is mostly about making it fair for non-regimental folks by evening the playing field, than about the exact method in which that is accomplished. I do think, however, that introducing applications for MTF's/GOI's will be met with more resistance.

-SUPPORT

There is a valid reason as to why applications are required over simple promotions and it's an important element I'd say.

Spoiler: Holy Yap

When someone writes an application, not only do you see what others ( Typically those below in rank ) have to say and if it's pointless personal arguing you can dismiss it. However, if it's a valid point to be brought up, you can use that to dig deeper and find out what kind of person you're dealing with. It also matters how they reply to this criticism - If it's valid and they reply, you can use that information to determine their maturity.

Other than that, CL4 does a good bit of document writing for IC moments - Stuff like temporary permits, discoveries and especially tests which is why it's good to review people applying for Exec.

Exec. especially is one of the few roles that is heavily based on writing, be it documents, tests, approvals or anything their creative minds come up to.

Other than that, it allows people to carefully observe the individual applying and contrary to what you think - it in fact makes it EASIER to get these positions. Imagine this:

You're barely known CM that's running around the site doing excellent RP and engaging wherever you can but you're simply not memorable and when the time comes, the Consultants choose to rather promote some nobody that they know and like.

How is this fair for you or many other potential medical players? The application puts a magnifying glass on you and lets the people actually observe the great work you do before accepting .. and if you do poorly? Denying.

Friend groups are also likely to form if there is no public forum around to vet these players, although in some instances the forum does fail us too but that's for another reason entirely. This suggestion would make it painfully easy to stack a department with your lads, typically by deception.

Regardless, I ought to finish my yap. The whole point of all of this is that CL4, JR or SR is a big jump even between seniorities and the players must carefully be considered for the role. Their behaviour in game as well as their writing ability and creativity matter so that they don't ruin the experience for the rest.

This suggestion would also harm the community by letting friend groups form which would also take away from the less-known but dedicated individuals.

Yep! You're right, this would make it easier to stack a department with friends, which would require greater SA/SC oversight to be prevented. You are also right in saying that individuals must be carefully considered for that role.

But neither of these things are taken into account for MTF/GOI promotions. They are simply done by the command team. Certainly; Some things such as requirements have to be met, but just as an example, these are the current CSG>LT Requirements for E11 on UK.



This... isn't that big of a list? I've heard multiple people talking about requirements as a heavy thing to weigh on the MTF's and GOI's, but I feel like I just do not particularly see it. These are just things that departmental leadership can take into account when deciding if/when to promote someone internally, creating their own requirements.

At least it would then be up to the department themselves, and Department Heads get more flexibility in how they can run their departments.

But if you're asking MTF COs to make applications? Absolutely not. The wider community doesn't need to comment on those and it's entirely up to REGCOM and CO team to discuss.

This I don't really understand though. If you think that for MTF's and GOI's, it should be solely up to the REGCOM and CO team and the wider community shouldn't need to comment on it, why do you think that is different for departments?

-Support

Okay well that was my holy yap. Thank you for attending.

 

[Average member podidski]

Yep! You're right, this would make it easier to stack a department with friends, which would require greater SA/SC oversight to be prevented. You are also right in saying that individuals must be carefully considered for that role.

But neither of these things are taken into account for MTF/GOI promotions. They are simply done by the command team. Certainly; Some things such as requirements have to be met, but just as an example, these are the current CSG>LT Requirements for E11 on UK.

View attachment 24588

This... isn't that big of a list? I've heard multiple people talking about requirements as a heavy thing to weigh on the MTF's and GOI's, but I feel like I just do not particularly see it. These are just things that departmental leadership can take into account when deciding if/when to promote someone internally, creating their own requirements.

UK UNGOC CSG (FSGT) reqs. For me they are vague.

UK NU-7 one does not even have a reqs for CSG, it just ends on CSG which means there is no "reqs" for CSG -> LT

E-11 USA reqs, they are heavy for me imo due the weekly "keeping of the rank".

USA NU-7 Reqs. They are kinda heavy due LVL5 hack and 50 Activities but oh well.



Please Don't ask me why i have the rosters.

 

[GMAN0289]

applications are not fun to write

 

[Niox]

dont question me, my feedback is law.

I assume you want elaboration, to keep it short my issue is that without applications, people find 0 reason to write lore. This could be made a promotion requirement (I know some groups like O-1 and GOC do), however that would be hellish to do as a GSD for example.

 

[JasonTheCheesyGuy]

dont question me, my feedback is law.

I assume you want elaboration, to keep it short my issue is that without applications, people find 0 reason to write lore. This could be made a promotion requirement (I know some groups like O-1 and GOC do), however that would be hellish to do as a GSD for example.

Thanks for the response, yep, I was hoping for a little bit of elaboration.

You're right in saying that there will be less reasoning to write lore, but as you say this is something that can be managed within the department as is currently done within various groups.

You say it would be hellish to do as a GSD; I don't really understand why that would be though? I imagine anyone having an interest in the Captain position could simply be informed to write up a character background and submit it to the existing CL4 personnel for them to be added to the roster. I don't think it'd be that much more difficult then how it is currently done for E11, where character lore is already a requirement for the CPL>SGT promotion (If I recall correctly?).




Multiple of the comments here have given me some insight in the possible benefits of Applications, though, which is why I'd suggest rather than fully removing them, that they be made optional. Someone may write an application should they wish (And, this should probably also be introduced for MTF/GOI CL4 positions), but promotions may also be performed by the relevant department heads without one. Best of both worlds, I'd believe.

 

[GMAN0289]

dont question me, my feedback is law.

I assume you want elaboration, to keep it short my issue is that without applications, people find 0 reason to write lore. This could be made a promotion requirement (I know some groups like O-1 and GOC do), however that would be hellish to do as a GSD for example.

Getting Sergeant in GSD is not a hard task considering there is already a process on US for interest forms and tracking of players. Also even before we had the role WL I managed to get Captain within the first week of joining the server (About 3 years ago) because I showed myself to be capable and I showed the other leadership that I was not a fool and acted professionally.

I would say though that if this system was to be implemented we would need more ranks in each department.

 

[Aphex]

View attachment 24594View attachment 24593
UK UNGOC CSG (FSGT) reqs. For me they are vague.

"Be considered Active" is a roster thing, if you're marked as "Active" on the roster, you already are elligable for promotion.

The 2nd requirement is just another way of saying that GOC COs all decide (gatekeep) if you've shown that you are capable and willing to committ to roleplay, capable of leading those beneath you in rank and making tough decisions when it the situation calls for it. The management part is mainly reserved for those who are in the management teams, and if you do good in them, you become considerably more elligable for a CO promotion.

 

[fyzar]

My only worry is the safety that applications add, it allows staff members to review a person before they get CL4 access and it also generally allows for better control by SA/SC/Staff to look into bias and favoritism in promotions.

What's stopping the SR CL4 from promoting loyalists into these jobs?

deal with it in rp, also SA/SC/SL can just demote them if they feel as if they arent fit no?

+support

 

[Pyrite]

Surprisingly enough this has been done in the past, though it was quite a while back. When I was ECM the first time around and we needed to pick a new ISD Director (at the time I believe it was still IA so it was the IA Director). The way it was done was not through the typical applications.
We gathered the CL4 member's of IA who had shown interest in the position and we had a conference sort of thing. We asked them all questions regarding their work, their plans and whatnot, even had them show documents and stuff like that, and out of the selection we chose one to become Director.

While this is a personal example, you're asking for a rule change that you have given no real rules for, just that positions no longer require an application.

What would be the IC requirements for these promotions?
What would be the IC alternative?

CL4 positions should not be handed out like they're candy. While I would prefer that it be done from an IC perspective, having it based on "I can do it when I want, I have the power to" isn't all too good, in my opinion.

I suggest that if this were to get accepted, the application must instead be submitted through IC means, something like a "Position Reassignment Request" or at least some form of notice that they have interest so the relevant people can discuss the matter. As applications are not just discussed by the Department Heads, but also the Juniors of the department.

 

[Scopes]

- Support

The application system works just fine for Jr. CL4, its a system that allows the Department leads to understand if that person has atleast some kind of writing skill (which is quite needed for any CL4 position) and also adds the requirement of a LORE.
Lore is an extremely important part of a CL4 character, one of the higher ranks of the Foundation and therefore they need to have some kind of background. Moving on, applications are an extra requirement after having shown good work on site as the CL3 role below. For instance, a GSD SGT leading well C2s and hosting patrols, a Sr. Researcher writing good documents and tests, a Sr. Doctor completing good evaluations etc... The application is just an extra step that also makes the leap to CL4 feel more significant, and it is also significantily easier for department leads to sort through the candidates for CL4.

Oh and by the way, I for one believe that becoming a CL4 in a regiment is way harder than becoming a CL4 in a department, with promotion cooldowns, the limited slots etc... Going to end this here so the yapping stops

Nobody really cares during lore writing nor nobody reads it to be honest. It's based off past / current experience, and what your behavior and understanding of the positioning.

 

['Clank']

I personally think CO promos need to be vetted because they influence a regiment, does that make sense? It's a level of responsibility now, you're a LT/MAJ/CPT, not an NCO.

You're a figurehead for the Reg!!!

CO promos are vetted by REGCOM and EC/O5 in AO and by other COs in other MTF's