Rule Suggestion Allow Class-D to breach 008

["Businessman"]

What does this suggestion change/add/remove:
Removes the rule:


Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?:
I don't believe so

Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):
+More RP Possibilities for Class-D
+No more RP dictating rule
+Encourages people to play Class-D

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:
- 4% increase in 008 breaches.

Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:
Using rules to protect something from being breached is just a lame way.

 

[Niox]

No. I am not having a 008 breach every day at 3am

 

[Cain Morris]

View attachment 22681

Do ya really think D-Class will follow this when no staff are on?

 

[Welper]

They don't know anything about any SCPs if they haven't seen them in RP, yet they can still breach them.
I already answered your questions. They don't need to know about any one of those other than one. They have to know hacking. We just assume some Class-Ds know how to hack things, or they wouldn’t be able to breach any SCPs other than 035. They wouldn’t even be able to hack the D-Block bulk door.

It's just hypocrisy to see no issue with a Class-D breaching 079 or 682, but to have a problem with them breaching 008.

I agree with you on the last argument which you said if someone gets angry they should be to kill that person and it should be an ingame issue but the problem with that is, its impossible to apply that rule. It just creates a loophole for people to abuse.

Oh no, I do have issues with class D breaching 079 or 682, just that SL agreed it's allowed (I think? I don't even know if class D CAN breach SCPs, or if nobody cares enough to call sits). I'd say this is a good balancing, class D can feasibly breach SCPs but 008 is too far.
My last point was irony. This server has very specific rules made so that it plays out in a specific way. Removal of rules such as these stops this specific path occuring. I also don't count the 1 counterargument - "Altough close to impossible since shooting your way out of D-Block and passing your way through a lot of security is almost always a death wish but its not unrealistic." - to the multiple arguments for impossibility (every single step in acquiring 008 syringes) as a "answering my questions" sufficiently. My comment on how little thought was put into the negatives have also not been answered. I can name multiple issues, reffered to a couple here, it's not possible that you could only make up a small number and keep it at that. Your positives are also lackluster, "more RP possibilities" - how? How will class D breaching 008 create more RP? "No more RP dictating rule", implies RP is created, reffer to previous, and also is a bad argument due to the fact that there are many rules which "dictate" RP, reffer to the specific way the server goes. Finally, "encourages people to play class D", no evidence to support this claim, and I doubt that class D numbers will really increase because they can finally breach 008.

if a dclass can make it all the way to hcz and hack multiple lv4 bios with 12 mtf on at that point its the mtfs fault

Just gonna also put it out there that "12 MTF" can include 8 Nu7 and 4 A1, none of whom get hacking alerts, are near HCZ, have basically any reason to be in HCZ. Point being that no, getting to HCZ itself with 12 MTF really is not an achievment, class D breach SCPs in there constantly on mornings with such numbers.

 

[Welper]

Do ya really think D-Class will follow this when no staff are on?

This is a rule suggestion... so dclass could already do this.... only the rules stop them, first the "dclass can't breach rule" then the "12 MTF + needed" rule

 

[Niox]

Do ya really think D-Class will follow this when no staff are on?

im sorry, what?
They follow the rule of not removing it from it's containment chamber, so yes, I do think they'd also follow this rule.

 

[qShad]

+support

If dclass can do multiple CL4 or even CL5 hacks, get pass many MTF and even exfil to inject? Massive MTF skill issue.
Having this being a server rule because E-11 can't lock in is kind of disappointing

 

["Businessman"]

Oh no, I do have issues with class D breaching 079 or 682, just that SL agreed it's allowed (I think? I don't even know if class D CAN breach SCPs, or if nobody cares enough to call sits). I'd say this is a good balancing, class D can feasibly breach SCPs but 008 is too far.
My last point was irony. This server has very specific rules made so that it plays out in a specific way. Removal of rules such as these stops this specific path occuring. I also don't count the 1 counterargument - "Altough close to impossible since shooting your way out of D-Block and passing your way through a lot of security is almost always a death wish but its not unrealistic." - to the multiple arguments for impossibility (every single step in acquiring 008 syringes) as a "answering my questions" sufficiently. My comment on how little thought was put into the negatives have also not been answered. I can name multiple issues, reffered to a couple here, it's not possible that you could only make up a small number and keep it at that. Your positives are also lackluster, "more RP possibilities" - how? How will class D breaching 008 create more RP? "No more RP dictating rule", implies RP is created, reffer to previous, and also is a bad argument due to the fact that there are many rules which "dictate" RP, reffer to the specific way the server goes. Finally, "encourages people to play class D", no evidence to support this claim, and I doubt that class D numbers will really increase because they can finally breach 008.

Just gonna also put it out there that "12 MTF" can include 8 Nu7 and 4 A1, none of whom get hacking alerts, are near HCZ, have basically any reason to be in HCZ. Point being that no, getting to HCZ itself with 12 MTF really is not an achievment, class D breach SCPs in there constantly on mornings with such numbers.

A fair percentage of Class-Ds play Class-D just to cause chaos. They could use 914 and try to get into HCZ, and that alone is good enough RP for a Class-D.

The "4%" is obviously made up, but I chose that value because it shouldn’t matter in the end. CI has a bunch of guns, skills, and manpower. Class-Ds get into that position very rarely. Considering the 12-MTF requirement, Class-Ds wouldn’t even be able to breach 008 most of the time. It’s just an estimation.

You claim 12 MTF isn't enough, but the same is true for CI, who are supposed to be superior. That’s not really relevant to this issue — if needed, you could request it to be increased. But saying this isn’t a good argument is like asking: what if there were 20 A-1, O-1, and 10 Nu-7, and no E-11? Is that the fault of CI or Class-D? I don’t think so.

Class-Ds can breach SCPs, but there's almost no RP when it comes to actually escaping to the surface as a Class-D.

In game it is also close to impossible to beat that much people and pass through a lot of guards then through HCZ, then alerts are send to people yet survive and then breach 008 that is close to impossible just like how it would be in real life.

 

[Evil]

If a dclass manage to get in hcz enter 008 yoink a needle and injected on to himself or d class then that just seems like a skill and complacency. in e11's part
+support

 

[Yellow]

The primary goal of D-Class is to escape the facility. The only reason they can breach an SCP on their own accord is to cause a distraction while escaping. Breaching 008 not only requires advance knowledge of how to breach it and poses high risk to attempt, but also causes high destruction to the facility in most cases. This goes far beyond the idea of causing a distraction.
-Support

 

[Ryan O'Dállaigh]

This would ruin server health

 

[Emilia Foddg]

I attempted a softer version of this almost two years ago.

This suggestion asks far more than what I did (I asked for it to be breachable by TB only - And that they couldn't inject themselves, only able to cause a breach by injecting a non D-Class hostage, whereas this just asks for any D-Class to be able to breach it)

And even though I put that forward knowing at the time that it would only contribute a small increase to 008 breaches due to the, and I still feel this way, very low likelihood of a D-Class TB ever making it as far as 008 in their lifetime, given all the complications and obstacles in their way - It was still pushed back against with some of the absolute most braindead slop -Supports (I'd say "Nice to see that hasn't changed," but the rationale applies a lot more here since this is asking for all D-Class and thus constitutes a far more drastic increase in breach chance, so the -Supports here are a lot more justified than before) and finally topped with an SSL response that at the time I felt was... While I fully understand the reservations behind this... I can really only call that denial... Overly cautious. That might just be me being salty, but TBH I would rather have been proven wrong by a seeing maybe a few days trial of the change and the breach rate of 008 magically jumping to ridiculous levels - Because even now, I still think that the sheer levels of skill and luck required for a TB (which themselves are already considerably rare appearance in the first place) to access 008 is... Well, less than it was back then. E-11 was simply in a better place at that time and could have easily repelled TB 008 breach attempts. Nowadays? Skill issue. And TBH, having the rules be laxer on this sort of thing opens up the vulnerability of server health to skill issues, so having the hard prevention in place just generally makes sense.

This will probably be denied for similar reasons - IMO, far more justified in the sense that I agree which not just any random D-Class being able to breach 008.

I don't think a D-class would almost ever knowingly breach 008 if they knew the circumstances, so that would be FailRP

The only reason they can breach an SCP on their own accord is to cause a distraction while escaping.

As death row inmates, it absolutely makes sense that a hostile D-Class could be inimical enough to deliberately try to make things as painful/miserable as possible, especially for people who would be their captors. Yellow's statement is a massive watering down of the nature of D-Class and an incomplete assessment of the role.

EDIT: In fact, past me in the suggestion I linked put it quite well, IMO:

In a Discord discussion regarding TB being able to cause an 008 breach, the following RP point of "From a prisoner's perspective, between having a chance at escaping and causing the end of the world, it would make more sense that the former would be chosen" was raised. My response was that there is a roleplay case to be made here and it can entirely depend on the prisoner's disposition. These are death-row inmates after all - It is not unreasonable for someone who might love to kill, on discovering the existence of a deadly weapon, to want to use it for that purpose.

and have an actual reason to.

D-Class do not (and IMO, should not) need "an actual reason" to breach anything. They can breach whatever they please (except 008 currently as per server rules, which again, I agree with to an extent, as established) for whatever reason they want. They are a hostile group to be kept in check and if they are not kept in check, then they will cause havoc. That is a big part of what D-Class is on the server.

Breaching 008 not only requires advance knowledge of how to breach it

I don't even know how a D class IC would
Get access to a cl 4 biometric, learn about 008 and its location, get into 008 without setting any suspicion, cycle the airlock or have someone assist them.

Why would you go to the CC in the first place? All that to say, there is *basically* no way [extreme circumstances for this not to be a rule break] a Dclass would have an actual RP way of learning what 008 is, where it is, how to breach it

>Be me
>Be escaped D-Class with hacking tool wanting to breach SCPs for whatever reason
>Head deeper inside, find big locked off room with an airlock and warning signs
>jackpot.jpg
>Break in
>"Huh, It's just syringes. Guess I could try injecting it into the next dude I come across and see what happens to them"
Advanced knowledge, indeed

Do ya really think D-Class will follow this when no staff are on?

This is a rule suggestion... so dclass could already do this.... only the rules stop them, first the "dclass can't breach rule" then the "12 MTF + needed" rule

They follow the rule of not removing it from it's containment chamber, so yes, I do think they'd also follow this rule.

Doesn't the keypad to access the syringes have a population threshold for whether it's allowed to be hacked? Like the server doesn't let you even try below a certain server pop?

---

That being said,

+THIS IS THE SINGLE BEST SUGGESTION THAT HAS EVER BEEN SUGGESTED ON THIS SUBFORUM AND NO OTHER SUGGESTION WILL EVER COME EVEN CLOSE
​

Purely out of spite

 

[Yellow]

May I remind you that D-Class are death row inmates. It absolutely makes sense that a hostile D-Class could be inimical enough to deliberately try to make things as painful/miserable as possible, especially for people who would be their captors. This statement is a massive watering down of the nature of D-Class and an incomplete assessment of the role.

D-Class do not need "an actual reason" to breach anything. They can breach whatever they please (except 008 currently as per server rules, which again, I agree with to an extent, as established) for whatever reason they want. They are a hostile group to be kept in check and if they are not kept in check, then they will cause havoc. That is a big part of what D-Class is on the server.

Their ability to breach SCPs as you put it will require extra rule clarifications to be added to the suggestion. The current ruling does not allow for any of this with regards to breaching SCPs.

 

[Emilia Foddg]

Their ability to breach SCPs as you put it will require extra rule clarifications to be added to the suggestion. The current ruling does not allow for any of this with regards to breaching SCPs.

...What? What rules are currently in place that prevent D-Class from breaching SCPs? A quick readover of the current rules doesn't turn up anything that suggests D-Class can't breach SCPs. Am I interpreting this right? I feel like I may be seeing this wrong, but is the claim that a D-Class can't escape D-Block, then go to say, 173's CC, and breach it?

 

[Yellow]

...What? What rules are currently in place that prevent D-Class from breaching SCPs? A quick readover of the current rules doesn't turn up anything that suggests D-Class can't breach SCPs. Am I interpreting this right? I feel like I may be seeing this wrong, but is that claim that a D-Class can't escape D-Block, then go to say, 173's CC, and breach it?

This is the current ruling by SL, however not explicitly stated in the rules. A D-Class must have a valid RP reason to breach an SCP e.g. they are conscripted by CI, or a single breach by themselves to distract the foundation while they escape.

 

[Emilia Foddg]

This is the current ruling by SL, however not explicitly stated in the rules. A D-Class must have a valid RP reason to breach an SCP e.g. they are conscripted by CI, or a single breach by themselves to distract the foundation while they escape.

Well then they can provide the valid RP reason when questioned. I agree on the idea of clamping down of things like metagaming, minging, NITRP and rampantly breaching SCPs for the express purpose of ruining roleplay - But the concept of valid RP reason is kinda vague and flexible? A lot of things can reasonably constitute a valid RP reason in most circumstances.

Like, if I breach an SCP as D-Class, get taken to a sit, asked why I breached the SCP, and respond with anything along the lines of "As a violent prisoner who was poking around the facility looking for places to hide from patrols, tools to escape, etc. I happened upon this thing that they're keeping locked up, and since I as a death-row inmate convicted of mass murder love killing people, I set it free so I could cause widespread death and destruction." and get warned for a failbreach as a result, I'm 100% taking that to a complaint.

That seems difficult to enforce, too.

...Is this just a US thing, or?

 

[Yellow]

Well then they can provide the valid RP reason when questioned. I agree on the idea of clamping down of things like metagaming, minging, NITRP and rampantly breaching SCPs for the express purpose of ruining roleplay - But the concept of valid RP reason is kinda vague and flexible? A lot of things can reasonably constitute a valid RP reason in most circumstances.

Like, if I breach an SCP as D-Class, get taken to a sit, asked why I breached the SCP, and respond with anything along the lines of "As a violent prisoner who was poking around the facility looking for places to hide from patrols, tools to escape, etc. I happened upon this thing that they're keeping locked up, and since I as a death-row inmate convicted of mass murder love killing people, I set it free so I could cause widespread death and destruction." and get warned for a failbreach as a result, I'm 100% taking that to a complaint.

That seems difficult to enforce, too.

...Is this just a US thing, or?

You're more than welcome to make a complaint if you feel that you were wrongfully warned in a case like this. The reasoning for each instance is considered on a case-by-case basis.
This should be the case for both servers.

 

[Joe900000]

-Support Ah hell nah you be tweakin with this suggestion

E-11 CPT Kenshiro Ethan

 

[Doug 'TrippleD']

no thanks

 

[Varr]

+support, the battle at 2am for 008 every morning will add the much needed RP between E-11 and D-Class

 

[Glazzing]

-support disguised d class already mass breach enough, they don't another thing to contribute to shittier gameplay for everyone else