Denied CI Being allowed to Nuke

[Dinklesprinkle]

What does this suggestion change/add/remove:
This rule would make it so during an authorised nuke room raid CI should be permitted to activate the nuke as currently every attempted nuke room raid where ci have captured the room always gets foiled by MTF not caring about the sites security and storming in regardless of the threat that ci holding a nuke room should hold. I also feel this is the case because MTF's know that ci cannot press the nuke so there is no motivation for them to follow negotiations or attempt to RP with ci at the time of the nuke raids.

I feel the Job of the MTF's are to protect the site rather than putting the site in danger due to people taking advantage of OOC rulings to influence RP.

After-Post Edition: Please give feedback on the suggestion instead of just -supporting as there's no way to for staff or myself to know why this suggestion is not liked, thank you

Full nuke authorisation should only be permitted by senior admin+ with valid reasons and should follow a major cooldown scale but Admins should be still allowed to non-full authorisation to just raid the room alone (as it is now)

Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):
- Would encourage RP between Foundation & CI as right now the only motivations are to just storm in and kill regardless of consequences
- People might actually start RP'ing more with ci instead of all interactions being warfare and KOSing eachother regardless of most scenarios
- Escalated scenarios could encourage GOC being brought in as a neutral party for negotiations.

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:
- Ci could pretend to have Authorisation but infect don't and cause major issues until picked up upon by staff.
- The nuke would fuck over the rest of the servers site Such as Testing, Lengthy medical procedures or GOC having captured SCP's.

Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:
I feel this should be accepted as currently All nuke room attempts that were semi successful on CI's side get shit on because Foundation does not and cannot seem to take CI Attempting to RP seriously. in a situation where the entire site is in danger and the only chance of it being de-escalation is by discussing it instead of ignoring all threats of the scenario because of rules and heading in just to get that cheap & easy XP as they take advantage over current rulings instead of taking the time to have an event level RP scenario that would lead to further interactions or In character advantages for CI.

This would force foundation to take a step back instead of just ignoring the Fear a nuke being taken control of should present.

 

[Bill Nye The Guy]

It doesn’t make any sense for CI to nuke IC as the mule would not only kill them in site but also destroy large area aswell as their base and the surroundings it makes no sense. Plus the nuke room is very easy to reach so could be abused as if in an instance there were 6 E-11 online who is there to stop ci raiding to nuke? It just doesn’t seem needed. My personal suggestion would be to update a rule about ci and MTF having to at least attempt negotiation before combat is attempted if ci raid nuke room

(A): The Chaos Insurgency are a fanatical and brainwashed organisation. There are SCP tales and the like showing the people in command and lower down have been brainwashed through memetics, cognitohazard infection, and more. They will fanatically do anything to make sure the Engine gets what it wants, even if it means that they die. Think about using cyanide so they aren't caught.
I can link a lot of CI reports from the SCP wiki showing how they commonly expose type blues and greens to memetics to brainwash them, or convert foundation members to their side through anomalous means.

(E): Restrictions will obviously be put in place, for example "You can only nuke once a week" or "There must be at least 100 players online"

dont worry bro i got you covered, try think up some more negatives

Clear reasons on why this shouldn't be accepted have been said in the above.

same situation here, clear reasons such as?

 

[Gizzmo]

+support
funny

 

[Bohemia]

+ Support

Will end poorly (Still funny)

 

[Niox]

Who the fuck said this lol

Its not a rule, more of something hard coding in
Nuke cannot be hacked with less than 130 People on, which is Impossible.

 

[John Ion Wells]

+support
i trust sl for this
but no 100k for the nuke pls

 

[Rice Cooker]

See (C).
Alpha 1 doesn't have too many duties, and one of them is to guard floor 3. Keep in mind that they have to do something like 2 CL4s, and 2 CL7s. That's not easy, especially after certain hackers were kicked out of CI.
You complain that verbal authorisation and confirmation is unreliable, if it's required to be in message form so be it. An admin can type in discord "NUKE RAID AUTHED" to hammer in that we are allowed to do it

I am not dismissing the tremendous effort that is required to hack into floor three as well as the nuke room. I am also not bypassing the fact that A1 are responsible for the security of floor 3. Both of these are important to consider when balancing CI's ability to access these sensitive areas.

In terms of security, I do not believe that floor three's location makes it feasible to allow for provisional nuke access. You argue that A1 are responsible for guarding floor three, and while that may be true, it is important to consider the balance of realism and entertainment. Floor three is one of the most secluded areas of the server, and there is very little traffic excluding the occasional site command member. This is different from E-11 stationed at HCZ CP or Nu-7 stationed on the surface who interact with other players relatively frequently. If this change were to be implemented, and A1 were confined to floor three security, this change would be incredibly detrimental to their experience as well as limit their ability to perform their other duties. I will belabor my previous point of floor three being far too easy to access as well. Floor three is secluded in entrance zone, outside the responsibility of all but a handful of MTF. If floor three access was placed in an area like HCZ, requiring CI to bypass or overpower multiple groups of security staff, then it may be more feasible balancing-wise.

I concede the fact that developing an approval system is certainly not difficult. However, I still wonder what situations, outside of events, would a senior staff member authorize a nuke raid to occur. The impact on the entire server very rarely outweighs the wants of the minority of CI members. This isn't to entirely dismiss your importance as less than to the foundation, just addressing the fact that the ratio of benefit to detriment seems too far skewed.

Finally, you dismiss the plurality consensus that "the nuke is used as an RP reset" as a novel change. I always understood the nuke as a reset button. This is mainly because the nuke contains all SCPs, regardless of proximity to the site, and returns the foundation to a functional state. Furthermore, I don't believe that the nuke was ever viewed as a substitute for site-wide amnestics, rather, people were required to forget events before the nuke because they would have died; players would represent new staff at a new site. Even if the idea of the nuke being a reset gained widespread popularity following the amnestics gas as power gaming ruling, the nuke's design has always been to eliminate all breached scps, and by most reasoning, reset RP as the site has been eradicated and players must act as new people in a new site.

 

[Bill Nye The Guy]

In of security, I do not believe that floor three's location makes it feasible to allow for provisional nuke assess. You argue that A1 are responsible for guarding floor three, and while that may be true, it is important to consider the balance of realism and entertainment. Floor three is one of the most secluded areas of the sever, and there is very little traffic excluding the occasional site command member. This is different from E-11 stationed at HCZ CP or Nu-7 stationed on surface who interact with other players relatively frequently. If this change where to be implemented, and A1 were confined to floor three security, that would be an incredible detriment to their experience as well as limit their ability to protect site command members. I will belabor my previous point of floor three being far too easy to access as well. Floor three is secluded in entrance zone, outside the responsibility of all but a handful of MTF. If floor three access was placed in an area like HCZ, requiring CI to bypass or overpower multiple groups of security staff, then it may be more feasible balancing wise.

Well, if a floor 3 raid is found out keep in mind that A1 not only spawn right next to the nuke room (giving immediate access to the CI that are trying to hack through 2 CL7 doors), but in the past and I'm sure in the present it presents novel combat for people who wouldn't normally get access to floor 3, like combat medics and other MTF groups. It's pretty cool to see all MTFs band together to attack one room.

I concede the fact that developing an approval system is certainly not difficult. However, I still wonder what situations, outside of events, would a senior staff member authorize a nuke raid to occur. The impact on the entire server very rarely outweighs the wants of the minority of CI members. This isn't to entirely dismiss your importance as less than to the foundation, just addressing the fact that ratio of benefit to detriment seems too far skewed.

Well in my eyes I think the system would work like 008 raids, where we're only allowed to do one nuke raid per day. That'd solve the problem of A1 being forced to guard floor 3 forever as well, since once they ward off one raid they are fine for however many hours or days the cooldown is.

Finally, you dismiss the plurality consensus that "the nuke is used as an RP reset" as a novel change. I always understood the nuke as a reset button. This is mainly due to the fact that nuke recontains all SCPs, regardless of proximity to the site, and returns the foundation to a functional state. Furthermore, I don't believe that the nuke was ever viewed as a substitute for site wide amnestics, rather, people where required to forget events prior to the nuke because they would have died; players would represent new staff at a new site. Even if the idea of the nuke being a reset gained widespread popularity following the amnestics gas as powergaming ruling, the nuke's design has always been to eliminate all breached scps, and by most reasoning, reset RP as the site has been eradicated and players must act as new people in a new site.

For the sake of balancing a nuke recontains all SCPs- you're right that everyone acts as people in a new site, which is why in the past (when I was in nu7 i coordinated this once or twice) we've had kamaz trucks ready for everybody lined up in garage to "transport them to the new sites" once the nuke goes off. In reality we just let them back in the base like they've had a long ride over but the RP is still there. I never said the nuke was an alternative for site-wide amnestics either, it's there to recontain all SCPs forcefully. In the past, even after nukes the site fills with gas so that the staff forget that the SCP foundation has nukes planted in every facility- you need to remember that only the O5 and very trusted foundation members know about the nuke, so once it goes off everybody is amnesticised afterwards. That's what caused 10/12, btw, because the nuke went off but nobody could be made to forget about its existence. Hence, all O1 had to kill them all so info didn't spread about the secret inside every site.

 

[Bill Nye The Guy]

I agree, MTF's should RP it more and care more if CI are holding the site hostage, however giving them the ability to actually do it is gonna be extremely bad.

bro, literally EVERY SINGLE NUKE RAID THAT'S EVER HAPPENED always ends with CI dying because of this exact reason - you know they can't activate the nuke unless one of them gets an MRDM ban, so you decide to rush in and kill them all without thinking about a giant nuke that will vapourise you
Giving the ability for them to go through with their threats will make negotiations actually mean something, and there will be VERY HIGH STAKES

 

[Second]

-support We don't need legal MRDM, it will just disrupt RP and ruin a lot of peoples enjoyment on the server. Foundation is about 75-80% of the playerbase at any given time, and an unannounced Alpha Warhead detonation would likely kill most people besides MTF Nu-7 and DEA who are already on surface. 80% of the server dying for "haha funny CI raid" is just... not it...

 

[L.Saint]

+Support

The ability to doesn't mean it will always happen. It should and will only be authed if the foundation refuses to communicate and should require a separate approval from Senior Admin+. Nuke raids are not daily.

 

[Bill Nye The Guy]

-support We don't need legal MRDM, it will just disrupt RP and ruin a lot of peoples enjoyment on the server. Foundation is about 75-80% of the playerbase at any given time, and an unannounced Alpha Warhead detonation would likely kill most people besides MTF Nu-7 and DEA who are already on surface. 80% of the server dying for "haha funny CI raid" is just... not it...

For every single nuke raid a code black has been called and all personnel are evacuated as soon as CI are found inside the nuke room. People are lined up in garage or evacuated to the breach shelter, which is wholly underutilised. I have literally never seen it successfully used outside of a few rare occasions. As I've also said before:

in the past (when I was in nu7 i coordinated this once or twice) we've had kamaz trucks ready for everybody lined up in garage to "transport them to the new sites" once the nuke goes off. In reality we just let them back in the base like they've had a long ride over but the RP is still there.

Also, see (D):

(D): Nobody in this server has ever experienced the rush of an UNFORSEEN NUKE DETONATION. The feeling of rushing to an evac shelter from HCZ might be an RP opportunity that nobody has ever experienced.

 

[Alpa]

I would like to reiterate how this would be a relitavely simple raid for what it is.

As myself and others have said, floor 3 is a secluded area of the map, assuming they get past floor 2 elevator they will get to floor 3 while it is completely unoccupied and no other MTF are there, giving them a time advantage. During this time CI will have full reign of floor 3 before anyone actually realises they are up there, CI can then use NHU to get through the door and perform a single level 6 hack (level 5 if they are prepared and bring a hacking upgrade) and the site is lost. Even if A-1 are constantly respawning up there after 1 minute cooldowns there is still almost no way to stop the site from being nukes assuming there is a competant hacker hacking it.

In the event of a nuke raid being authed for a deepcover mission for whatever reason this would be even more trivial as they would likely be able to hack the nuke without anyone even noticing at all.

A well coordinated nuke raid would be nearly impossible to counter without constantly having guards on floor 3 and would ruin the RP of multiple classes, I get your whole point D is "Nobody in this server has ever experienced the rush of an UNFORSEEN NUKE DETONATION" however that isn't as exhilarating as you make it out to be, people involved in their own RP have to run to surface instead of continuing their RP, it would get very stale very very quickly.

If floor 3 was less secluded as well as this having immense amounts of restrictions such as only having one nuke raid per week or requiring extensive RP leading up to it, it could make sense, however due to the location of floor 3 being unlikely to change this just wouldn't work. Odds would have to be heavily sided against CI for a raid as disruptive to RP as detonating the nuke and with the current suggestion and difficulty of performing it with careful planning it just would not be difficult enough and would ruin more RP than it creates.

For anyone who still thinks getting to floor 3 is an incredibly difficult task I have seen tech experts in the o5 meeting room, parawatch in the o5 offices, a raid consisting of 2 CI in the o5 offices, countless other civilians and cl1 on floor 3, it is not a difficult place to get to, a coordinated raid would have 0 issue getting to and holding floor 3 (the entrance is a choke point)

 

[Bill Nye The Guy]

As myself and others have said, floor 3 is a secluded area of the map, assuming they get past floor 2 elevator they will get to floor 3 while it is completely unoccupied and no other MTF are there, giving them a time advantage. During this time CI will have full reign of floor 3 before anyone actually realises they are up there, CI can then use NHU to get through the door and perform a single level 6 hack (level 5 if they are prepared and bring a hacking upgrade) and the site is lost. Even if A-1 are constantly respawning up there after 1 minute cooldowns there is still almost no way to stop the site from being nukes assuming there is a competant hacker hacking it.

In the event of a nuke raid being authed for a deepcover mission for whatever reason this would be even more trivial as they would likely be able to hack the nuke without anyone even noticing at all.

A well coordinated nuke raid would be nearly impossible to counter without constantly having guards on floor 3 and would ruin the RP of multiple classes, I get your whole point D is "Nobody in this server has ever experienced the rush of an UNFORSEEN NUKE DETONATION" however that isn't as exhilarating as you make it out to be, people involved in their own RP have to run to surface instead of continuing their RP, it would get very stale very very quickly.

If floor 3 was less secluded as well as this having immense amounts of restrictions such as only having one nuke raid per week or requiring extensive RP leading up to it, it could make sense, however due to the location of floor 3 being unlikely to change this just wouldn't work. Odds would have to be heavily sided against CI for a raid as disruptive to RP as detonating the nuke and with the current suggestion and difficulty of performing it with careful planning it just would not be difficult enough and would ruin more RP than it creates.

For anyone who still thinks getting to floor 3 is an incredibly difficult task I have seen tech experts in the o5 meeting room, parawatch in the o5 offices, a raid consisting of 2 CI in the o5 offices, countless other civilians and cl1 on floor 3, it is not a difficult place to get to, a coordinated raid would have 0 issue getting to and holding floor 3 (the entrance is a choke point)

As for floor 3 being secluded:

Well, if a floor 3 raid is found out keep in mind that A1 not only spawn right next to the nuke room (giving immediate access to the CI that are trying to hack through 2 CL7 doors), but in the past and I'm sure in the present it presents novel combat for people who wouldn't normally get access to floor 3, like combat medics and other MTF groups. It's pretty cool to see all MTFs band together to attack one room.

NHU is a fair argument i'm not going to pretend like i can say much about it- just keep in mind that the nuke room doors can be opened, also see (E)
A DC mission getting to the nuke would be extremely difficult, floor 3 would likely be manned- see (E). You raise a good point tho that they could hack it without anyone noticing although i'd imagine A1 would hear hacking 10m away from them, as the tool is notoriously loud.
A well co-ordinated raid should be rewarded through being able to get to the nuke room efficiently and fast. I don't think that they would be impossible to counter either, considering that everyone and their uncle has god chems now and A1 is (ideally) made up of the best of the best players.
The main thing I wanna say is that I don't think nuke raids should be done unless the server is absolutely able to deal with it which is why it should be possible, but restricted. I've gotten into the nuke room before, but it was late at like 4AM. People getting inside of floor 3 can be traced to negligence of A1, which CI shouldn't be punished for.

I also wanna say: Keep in mind that they way the nuke works is that you hack the keypad, and then the BIG RED BUTTON is able to be pressed afterwards. CI can successfully hack the nuke without actually activating it.

 

[Archie Bambozzini]

-Support
Honestly its unneeded, its not like CI is limited in any way adding an ability to nuke will just cause more issues. Also a nuke is meant to be an RP reset so it wouldn't really work

 

[Ogre]

+Support

 

[Niox]

Also a nuke is meant to be an RP reset so it wouldn't really work

Nuke was never intended to be a RP reset. They used to use Amnestic gas across the facility, but that was half labelled as power gaming, so they changed it.
Was the reason why the goofy event happened

 

[Bill Nye The Guy]

Honestly its unneeded, its not like CI is limited in any way adding an ability to nuke will just cause more issues. Also a nuke is meant to be an RP reset so it wouldn't really work

see (C):

(C): The idea of the nuke being an RP reset only came about after 10/12/22, when amnestic gas was ruled as powergaming. However, after what happened many months ago, it is not not very rare to see csays that say "A cloud of amnestic gas covers Pinewood" or "A cloud of gas is covering pinewood" to do things like amnesticise civs or remove 008 spores on surface

as for it being unneeded: nuke raids have happened in the past but negotiations have never once gone through because A1 decide to bumrush CI since they know that we aren't allowed to hack the nuke. This change would make negotiations like this actually have stakes rather than having A1 just rush in willy nilly when in reality doing so would kill everything underground

 

[Rackarain]

Major - Support Imagine you waiting like 2 or 3 hours waiting to get breached as an scp and you get breached seconds later you hear alpha war head has been actived, wouldn't you be pissed off that your breach was ruined cuz ci set the nuke off cuz they can. it ruins everyone time so no on your idea

 

[Lee Falzone]

-Support

 

[BoltSive]

+ Support
I like the idea since it would actually pose a threat to Foundation when we raid the nuke room with an actual threat of detonation however i feel like actually detonating the button should be authorized from LTCOM+ since it would stop constant nukes every hour or so.

This would force both factions to RP it out when CI holds the room hostage and will stop MTF from just pushing into the nuke room because they know we can't actually detonate it.​