Denied Non-combatives only spawn with perma secondaries (not primaries)

This suggestion has been denied and will not receive development.
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Zen

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Sep 16, 2023
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What does this suggestion change/add/remove:
Roles that do not spawn with a primary as part of their job also don't spawn with their perma primary. However, they can always spawn with their perma secondary (plus perma extras). This applies to any role that spawns with no weapons at all, and any role that only spawns with e.g. a pistol for self defense.

EDIT: The specifics of which jobs would continue to spawn with primaries would be up to SL/CT - I'm fine with e.g. an ECA having one to use as part of their disguise, as they are experienced enough to be sensible and have a good enough reason to have it and explanation of where they could have gotten it. Jobs like chef, E&TS, doctors, etc. though don't make sense to have primaries.

Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?:
Not that I could find.

Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):
  • Removes the incentive for non-combative roles to enter combat deliberately
  • Prevents a random techie or something from being a significant threat to multiple armoured combatants, so they're not as big a problem if they attempt RDM, or decide they're going to fight CI
  • Still allows use of a perma, so people would hopefully not be as salty that they don't have an MSBS as a chef
  • Still allows use of a perma for self defense, but not using something powerful enough that somebody would feel like they can be combative when they shouldn't be
  • Encourages people to buy perma secondaries, which are currently not well-loved, and most people go without - makes more money for the server/the owners
  • Encourages the use of a secondary in self defense situations, which takes less time to pull out, which is a sensible choice
  • They can still use the primary on any combative role

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:
  • Some people cry that they can't have an ARX as a researcher, because they need it for all of the around 2 times they ever actually use it legitimately
  • People that buy perma primaries may just generally not be happy that they can't always have it - I'd say overall game balance and discouraging non-combatives from entering combat is more important

Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:
It is (in my opinion) a good compromise in that people can still have self defence weapons, and still access some of their permas even on non-combative roles, while discouraging common situations where players decide to look for combat as a non-combative. It would bring better game balance and discourage some currently quite common rule breaking. Meanwhile, it would also encourage people to buy perma secondaries that wouldn't previously have done so, which means more money for the server/owners.
 
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Skittles

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Oct 20, 2022
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I own an MSBS for home defence, since that's what Civil Networks intended.

4 CI break into my 914 test, "what the 008 Zombie Virus", as I grab my perma MSBS and unauthorised PAC. 3 shot the first CI, he's dead on the spot.

Draw my harpoon on the other man, miss because M9K sucks, and nail the escorting gensec.

I have to resort to the 914 auger stored at the top of it, TALLY HO LADS, as half a mag shreds 2 of the delta operatives. The distinct noise causing alarm in the site.

Equip perma reaper's fork, charge the last terrified strike team. He bleeds out waiting for Nu-7 to arrive as at least 16 stab wounds are impossible to heal.

Just as Civil Networks intended.

Jokes aside, if non-combatives use their perma in a situation that doesn't allow it a sit will sort it. Plus right now, no one buys perma secondaries to my knowledge since perma rifles are much better.
 
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Michael Dzhetnikov

Civil Gamers Expert
Mar 22, 2022
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I own an MSBS for home defence, since that's what Civil Networks intended.

4 CI break into my 914 test, "what the 008 Zombie Virus", as I grab my perma MSBS and unauthorised PAC. 3 shot the first CI, he's dead on the spot.

Draw my harpoon on the other man, miss because M9K sucks, and nail the escorting gensec.

I have to resort to the 914 auger stored at the top of it, TALLY HO LADS, as half a mag shreds 2 of the delta operatives. The distinct noise causing alarm in the site.

Equip perma reaper's fork, charge the last terrified strike team. He bleeds out waiting for Nu-7 to arrive as at least 16 stab wounds are impossible to heal.

Just as Civil Networks intended.

Jokes aside, if non-combatives use their perma in a situation that doesn't allow it a sit will sort it. Plus right now, no one buys perma secondaries to my knowledge since perma rifles are much better.
everyone uses it and most of the time they go unpunished
 

ERaven

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Mar 7, 2023
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Massive + support
however i would like to see one change being Cl5s and Assistants as having the rifle is useful for blending into ISD during escorts or patrols.
 
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Emilia Foddg

Trial Game Master
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Jul 15, 2023
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as much as some rules should be mechanically enforced, there's already sufficient staff policing of this and some weird edge casing. i don't think this is necessary, as well-intentioned and reasoned as it is
 

Lightsoulist

Civil Gamers Expert
Jan 23, 2022
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everyone uses it and most of the time they go unpunished
Maybe……. idk report them? With evidence? Make an actual sit so it’s known they can’t do it so they stop. “They don’t get punished” is a sorry excuse because they don’t get punished because no one reports it then people say they don’t get punished because no one reports them.
Btw -support
 

Zen

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Sep 16, 2023
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It's not just a matter of rule enforcement, it's also a matter of server balance. It's not really fair that most non-combatants are actually carrying around assault rifles, meaning they are an actual threat to e.g. CI trying to kidnap them. It makes sense that all foundation staff might have enough training to use a pistol, but they definitely wouldn't be carrying around an ARX all day. Having just secondaries means they can defend themselves from e.g. loose D-class, or lone CI in the right circumstances, but otherwise any full on combat is left to combative roles.
 
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Lightsoulist

Civil Gamers Expert
Jan 23, 2022
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You don’t really see non combatives get into combative situations unless they’re…… you know tech experts or people who are actively in danger. Plenty times I’ve had A1, O1, Nu7 and other peoples come and take my perma weapons as a Techy.
People follow the rules. It’s just when you cherry pick you’ll find the stuff you like. Non-combatives don’t usually actively engage in a combative situation unless they’re a minge or someone who’s so combat hungry they’ll find any excuse to kill someone even on a non-combative job by saying “I felt threatened.” I’d know. I’m the second one and I’m the only one ever doing it ever when I’m on at peak hours.
 

Juju

Civil Gamers Expert
May 1, 2022
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+Support this is a horrible topic to discuss but i do think its quite ridiculous but i do think that perma weapons have gone to far i mean weapon check a chef oh whats this ofc its a rifle its my perma weapon its like you were not going to remove it from ur inv its stupid i think it should be so that you can choose if you want to spawn with it or not and make it so that you cant just get rid of it by using a npc horrible feature i mean the perma weapons are kinda fucked
 

Niox

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Jan 23, 2023
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+/- Neutral
-Less RDM/FailRP
-Makes sense, why would a tech expert have a ARX with him

-Easier to kidnap non-combatives
-Harder for people like O5 to blend in (As they wouldn't have a perma ARX)

-Encourages buying Secondary weapons more
 

Zen

Active member
Sep 16, 2023
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+/- Neutral
-Less RDM/FailRP
-Makes sense, why would a tech expert have a ARX with him

-Easier to kidnap non-combatives
-Harder for people like O5 to blend in (As they wouldn't have a perma ARX)

-Encourages buying Secondary weapons more
When it comes to people like O5 with disguise card, they can still have it just for blending in and because they're already pretty trusted. I think that's a reasonable exception. Alternatively, they can just grab a gun from an armoury, because they're O5.
 

Niox

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Jan 23, 2023
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When it comes to people like O5 with disguise card, they can still have it just for blending in and because they're already pretty trusted. I think that's a reasonable exception. Alternatively, they can just grab a gun from an armoury, because they're O5.
Buying a ARX every time you die or get on the server stacks up eventually
 
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