Rule Suggestion REMOVAL OF ISD IMMUNITY // RDM RULING

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What does this suggestion change/add/remove:
Removal of the immunity for ISD, for Arrests which is listed as the following
The staff team have found it best to ensure that members of ISD are aware of the rules as a whole because we believe that due to lack of reports reaching the staff team and therefore being unable to be dealt with has recently worsened ISDs enjoyment - the staff team exists to assist when people break server rules and worsen the quality of the server.

Please ensure you are aware in some capacity of the limitations of how far AO (FISA/LE) are allowed to bend the rules, **which is none at all.**

A Foundation member may not kill an ISD arresting them or their ally without very very good reason, which just being a member of AO (FISA/LE) does not cover.

> 1.03, Random Death Match, You must have a real and justifiable reason to kill or attempt to kill another player.

If players are breaking rules and killing ISD during arrests, regardless of departments, please ensure it is properly reported to staff.​
I find this ruling entirely antithetical to meaningful roleplay, Rather than supporting organic in-character interaction, it encourages ruleplay and removes the need for players to think critically about how to detain someone or resolve situations naturally. In effect, it rewards the abandonment of roleplay in favor of staff reliant intervention.
Matter of fact ISD already has more than enough tools to conduct arrests:


1. The ability to coordinate with any Department or MTF


2. The use of disguises to catch individuals/Groups off guard


3. The authority to carry out arrests


4. Arrest Tools, Like tranq pistols, handcuffs any number of ones would fit here


Resistance should be expected in any arrest attempt, regardless of scale. That is not a flaw in roleplay; it is part of it. The proper response is to address the matter through in-character consequences, such as court proceedings or escalation through the correct channels such as CO Team's, ECM, O5, SA, Respective Dept Leads, and not through immediate ruleplay that drags staff in, wastes everyone’s time, and leaves a sour taste for all involved.


Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?
None before this one.

Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2)
-It allows scenarios to be organic, and possibly storylines or such can be established via it, and I think it'd be more better for both sides instead of it taking the OOC path right away at the slightest inconvenience.



-Since this is also, a OOC Ruling, removing it It would prevent CI/GOC or any other party from class F'ing, or using ISD Disguises to make kidnap attempts, attempting to use this to their advantage, what's preventing from CI Class F'ing a random ISD Operator and arresting an O5 for any number of reasons that are not treason related, If A1 decide to intervene it would violate the very listed above rulings.

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:
-ISD Would have a harder time to arresting people, they'd have to coordinate to see how to arrest groups or people and work more closely with other departments or staff to ensure smooth arrests.


-ISD Would have to be careful on how they approach situations, to avoid immediate-retaliation.


Based on the Positives and Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:
I think this should be accepted, as this ruling stands relatively against any sort of common sense of roleplay, It makes players miss alot of player-created roleplay and makes staff intervention common which shouldn't ideally really be that common,
 
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- Support

This rule stops people being able to gun down ISD for tiny little reasons in which it totally doesn’t make sense for them to kill people over. As stated in the rule you can kill them with a ‘very very good reason’. If you want to go around killing ISD for an rp reason then ask SL for treason rp authorisation. Also why would anyone comply with ISD if they can just try and shoot them down and avoid jail time anyways due to NLR? Seems like it would just take away from all rp and turn ISD into a combat job. Anyways please correct me if I misunderstood your suggestion :)
 
+Support
RDM is all about having an IC justified reason to kill someone. But apparently, resisting arrest is not a valid reason. I disagree with a full removal and think this should be more on a case-by-case basis rather than outright requiring TreasonRP. i.e. If a chef decides to pull out a gun because ISD tried to arrest them for a valid reason, sure. That's RDM. But in more greyer cases, especially time-sensitive ones where you can't reliably get timely TreasonRP auth? This should be pursuable as organic RP without any unnecessary ruleplay.

IMO, this should be revised and loosened.

This could also prevent FCOM potentially curveballing an AO v E-11/Nu7 combat situation by just ordering mass arrests, which wouldn't be resistible under current rules because you can't resist arrest without TreasonRP auth, and technically an abuse of this specific protection provided it's not RDA.
 
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Should also be able to cyanide to avoid arrest 😈
This rule stops people being able to gun down ISD for tiny little reasons in which it totally doesn’t make sense for them to kill people over. As stated in the rule you can kill them with a ‘very very good reason’.
As it stands you can only kill an ISD if you are already accused of murder (or treason like you said but that'd have to be specific to just ISD I would assume.) as the base reason but even then its just if they're actively trying to arrest you. Though this may have changed idk if it has but I haven't heard anything about it and I haven't tried killing any ISD recently.
 
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+Support this should be a situation where you can assassinate an arresting officer for if you're convicted of murder, about to be murdered and need to value your life by finding a way out or your arresting officer's plotting a credible threat to your life (corruption, no lawyer or torture).

It's a roleplay server, random death match implies you killed the officer randomly and a credible threat to your life is a good reason to find a caliber and kill your arresting agent to get outta there (SO NOT RDM)
 
-support
basically what your recommending is a get out of punishment for free for anyone, that in it self is anti rp, the rule exists to promote rp and stop the server from becoming a combat server. yes sure it should be laxed if your doing high treason or murder, but overall laxing of the rule is why I disagree with this suggestion. (you would literally have cadets shooting ISD every second)
 
+Support
Honestly most of the people who replied to this thread and immediately -Supported it clearly didn't read it very throughly.
It's completely bullshit that ISD can muscle their way into arresting you alone with no way of fighting back against them.

Currently all an ISD has to do to arrest you is be by themselves and just... Cuff you... Alone... With no support because if you even try anything to resist you'll be warned. It makes it too easy for ISD to arrest people.
If your worried that you'll be shot trying to arrest someone then don't be a moron and do it alone. Bring 2 or three ISD along to arrest the offending party.
In the end all this ruling does is allow ISD to muscle their way into doing whatever they want, Even more then they already do.
 
+Support

As it stands, if a singular agent were to walk up to a group of 3 people breaking the FLC, he could practically just walk forward and arrest them all, no backup. They can operate safely under the knowledge that nobody can shoot them, and thus they do not have to try or be clever with anything. (Fear RP would rationally apply, but he will just walk forward and start cuffing at which point they either shoot or are arrested)

We've had cadres of ISD sitting in inanimate and jail-sniping junior researchers for minor mistakes ("you walked into the CC for one nanosecond, jail!") driving people away from roleplay and the server as a whole.
They are unaccountable and prone to intentionally interpreting situations in a way to maximise time due to the perception that this is how they "win".

ISD, partly due to its split purpose of dealing with things that would otherwise be admin sits (RDM ,minges, deliberately unleashing dclass, etc.) engages with all players and all roleplay in bad faith by default, it is draining to play ISD, so i fully understand their tired "done with it" attitude. After the 11th chef trying to free an SCP without any RP you get tired of it, it is a lot like staffing in that.

The problem is that they do not treat people who are doing things like that and people engaging in roleplay any differently, and are working with incredible restrictive legal codes that let them define just about anything they want as any number of crimes.

For most players, it is just an accepted fact to not even bother arguing with them, and to just shut up and let them do whatever they want.
This is not good for anyone, not even them.

I think curbing their OOC immunities would be a good start, but even if this suggestion is not chosen to be implemented, i think something about how they operate should change to the benefit of players, as it can be incredibly suffocating to Roleplay and creates the impression of "ruleplay".
 
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I find this ruling entirely antithetical to meaningful roleplay, Rather than supporting organic in-character interaction, it encourages ruleplay and removes the need for players to think critically about how to detain someone or resolve situations naturally.
The original statement, although it already follows the rules in place, was made because ISD had multiple situations where they were unable to arrest members of AO due to AO members being in groups and willing to shoot very quickly to stop an arrest during which the ISD believed the AO could do it purely due to their roles - the rule itself (being unable to kill ISD during an arrest without a proper reason) exists currently so combat cannot be instantly used to end all ISD arrest related RP and generally because of the RDM/FailRP rules that already exist.

Generally I find killing someone during an arrest to be very silly RP, the idea that any character would rather murder a fellow Foundation member than going down to ISD wing is absurd in 99% of circumstances.

Most people still have the ability to avoid arrest through keeping a gun out, FearRPing the ISD, being in a group so you're unable to be FearRP, etc - all of which certainly increase and push RP, I am of the personal opinion that allowing someone to shoot an ISD down instantly actually causes more RP to be lost than gained in most cases.
 
Holy +support

Nothing hits like ISD having the ability to basically take part in AO conflicts and tensions (not wars) to just arrest people with absolute immunity.
 
Generally I find killing someone during an arrest to be very silly RP, the idea that any character would rather murder a fellow Foundation member than going down to ISD wing is absurd in 99% of circumstances.
Me when I have to shoot my colleague in the head with my silenced SPAS-12 because I trespassed inside medbay
 
The original statement, although it already follows the rules in place, was made because ISD had multiple situations where they were unable to arrest members of AO due to AO members being in groups and willing to shoot very quickly to stop an arrest during which the ISD believed the AO could do it purely due to their roles - the rule itself (being unable to kill ISD during an arrest without a proper reason) exists currently so combat cannot be instantly used to end all ISD arrest related RP and generally because of the RDM/FailRP rules that already exist.

Generally I find killing someone during an arrest to be very silly RP, the idea that any character would rather murder a fellow Foundation member than going down to ISD wing is absurd in 99% of circumstances.

Most people still have the ability to avoid arrest through keeping a gun out, FearRPing the ISD, being in a group so you're unable to be FearRP, etc - all of which certainly increase and push RP, I am of the personal opinion that allowing someone to shoot an ISD down instantly actually causes more RP to be lost than gained in most cases.
ive never once seen ISD Actually Roleplay their arrests so saying "arrest related RP" doesnt make sense. if anything this encourages roleplay