Accepted Ruling Change (Global Chain of Command, 4.1)

[Second]

What does this suggestion change/add/remove:
This change will move "MTF Commissioned Officers" up to be on par with "Agency Managers" (imaged below)


Has something similar been suggested before? If so, why is your suggestion different?:
I don't believe so? (N/A)

Possible Positives of the suggestion (At least 2):
+ Will allow for MTF COs to "feel senior" in terms of authority on-site.
+ Overall just makes sense, GSD CPT and Exec. Researcher are miles easier to get than MTF LT+

Possible Negatives of the suggestion:
- None I can think of?

Based on the Positives & Negatives, why should this suggestion be accepted:
Instead of writing a paragraph, I will list off the differences between the 3 categories mentioned in this post to emphasize my points.

MTF Commissioned Officer:
- Slot limits
- Internally promoted
- Could take weeks or months of effort to achieve
- Classified as "Senior CL4", meaning you can not hold it alongside another Senior position.

Agency Manager:
- Slot limits
- Internally promoted
- Could take weeks or months of effort to achieve
- Classified as "Senior CL4", meaning you can not hold it alongside another Senior position.

Departmental Jr. CL4 (Exec. Researcher, GSD CPT, IA Ambassador, DEA Sp. Agent, Med. Consultant):
- No restrictions on slots (Meaning on a roster, not in-game job slots)
- Forum application for whitelists
- Easier to achieve
- Classified as "Junior CL4", meaning you can hold multiple (or even all) of the positions listed alongside others OR a Senior Position.

MTF Commissioned Officers share more in common with DEA Agency Manager than Departmental Jr. CL4, it would make more sense for them to have the same level of authority within the Chain of Command. This would also allow Site Admin/Site Command to properly respect them as "Senior" positions when it comes to policy changes, as having them be on par with Departmental Jr. CL4 makes it hard to have policies bend around them.

 

[Second]

Since this keeps getting brought up, I will add something here:

This suggestion is in no means directed to target Assistants. I don't know how UK operates, but on US, Assistants do not order around COs unless they are under orders from respective SC, meaning either way nothing would change. As an OA myself, I rarely "give out orders" to anyone with a CL4 of any kind, Senior or Junior.

This change is to make MTF COs proper Senior staff on-site with respect and authority behind their names. I am aware of "Zone Authority", US has it as well UK players, though that is also not what this change is targetting. It is to allow for an MTF CPT or MAJ (or even just LTs) to get the same level of trust and power as a DEA Agency Manager, which would make sense in the context of the server regardless of the context of Assistants or Zone Authority.

Both are trusted positions, why is one treated as kings that don't need anyone above them and the other is treated as if they need their hands held by ECAs all day? Although that is not the reason for the suggestion, it is a common reason people are -supporting, which just seems to make no sense to me.

 

[Emilia Foddg]

i'm gonna be honest, i have never once seen an agency manager on UK. unless i just completely forgot, but like... yeah.

 

[Naffen]

i'm gonna be honest, i have never once seen an agency manager on UK. unless i just completely forgot, but like... yeah.

Theres 2 on daily, just poor activity from you I guess

 

[checkraisefold]

i'm asking for a more concrete proof that MTF COs are a junior CL4 position - they have only stated that the rules as written are wording intended to prevent you from holding CO positions in multiple different factions without any proof of that assertion being an official staff position on the matter. at present, this is just two conflicting pieces of information, "COs are senior CL4s" and "COs are junior CL4s"

To further clarify:
The wording "senior position" does not connotate "senior CL4". These are two different phrases that mean different things.
Senior CL4 and Junior CL4 are referring to the Chain of Command, while "senior position" is a phrase used solely for the purpose of server rules. Therefore, these aren't conflicting pieces of information.

 

[checkraisefold]

The point of this suggestion was to make them be Senior in both rulings and CoC, by the way. The reason may be a US issue, but it has nothing to do with ECAs/OAs like people keep saying. ECAs and OAs on US rarely if ever order LT+ around, and if they need to arrest an LT+ they are probably under SC orders (which puts them on par with SC).

Currently, ECAs (I think at least on UK) and even IA Ambassadors (according to DoIA) are permitted to arrest Junior CL4 (including MTF COs). This change would mean they are unarrestable except by Ethics/DoIA despite them doing legal codex violations as least as much (usually) as other Junior CL4 personnel.

 

[Stealth]

- Support

This seems to be more of a suggestion towards the US site as the issue in which your presenting isn't something the UK site experience. US have a lot more activity within IA, DEA and Medical and I could see how it would benefit the US side but this seems like it would counteract policies on the UK side as well as the whole point of Site Admin being a body in which you can report to.

 

[Second]

- Support

This seems to be more of a suggestion towards the US site as the issue in which your presenting isn't something the UK site experience. US have a lot more activity within IA, DEA and Medical and I could see how it would benefit the US side but this seems like it would counteract policies on the UK side as well as the whole point of Site Admin being a body in which you can report to.

How does this effect SA in the slightest? At most it effects ECAs and OAs and makes SA capable to treat COs as proper Sr. CL4 in policy changes

 

[Second]

Currently, ECAs (I think at least on UK) and even IA Ambassadors (according to DoIA) are permitted to arrest Junior CL4 (including MTF COs). This change would mean they are unarrestable except by Ethics/DoIA despite them doing legal codex violations as least as much (usually) as other Junior CL4 personnel.

They can still be arrested by IA or Assistants under SC orders, which they usually would be under when arresting a CO.

 

[Emilia Foddg]

They can still be arrested by IA or Assistants under SC orders, which they usually would be under when arresting a CO.

i mean if you're dead set on this, a possible solution to this would be for SC to make an IC policy for assistants ala broda's zone jurisdiction policy that basically delegates the necessary authority under these circumstances... that solves the issue in a needlessly complex way while accomplishing making COs... uh, feel senior.

 

[Snowson]

-Support
MTF COs need not be higher on the chain of command because they rarely need to issue orders to other departments, and in most situations where they do need to they are fully empowered to do so.

Additionally, Cloak (rip) has stated in the past that he regretted naming them "Senior CL4 Positions"
"Your average MTF LT doesn't outrank your average Executive Researcher. They're senior positions but this is a distinction that only has meaning in the rules, to be honest, I regret calling it that now instead of something like 'limited' or 'restricted', as the word senior implies that a senior position is automatically 'above' a non-senior position, which isn't the case."

 

[Emilia Foddg]

Additionally, Cloak (rip) has stated in the past that he regretted naming them "Senior CL4 Positions"
"Your average MTF LT doesn't outrank your average Executive Researcher. They're senior positions but this is a distinction that only has meaning in the rules, to be honest, I regret calling it that now instead of something like 'limited' or 'restricted', as the word senior implies that a senior position is automatically 'above' a non-senior position, which isn't the case."

i feel like this is the hottest take i've ever seen - have i just never seen a non-respectable MTF CO? i guess i'm blinded by only knowing UK E-11 COs? i should go peoplewatch COs of other MTFs or something, because i'm clearly missing something here.

 

[Niox]

i feel like this is the hottest take i've ever seen - have i just never seen a non-respectable MTF CO? i guess i'm blinded by only knowing UK E-11 COs? i should go peoplewatch COs of other MTFs or something, because i'm clearly missing something here.

Not a take, literally what THE old NL said

 

[Alpa]

I might be banned currently but I saw this and I see some people who just dont understand how chain of command works at all.

While moving MTF COs up would give them more authority than Jr CL4s they still do not have juristiction to hand out orders in their areas 99% of the time. MTF COs give out orders which affect site security, they do not give out orders to perform specific research, arrest certain people and whatever else is specifically under a single departments juristiction, all this change does is put them on the same level as Ag Managers when giving orders under their juristiction so non-combative CL4 cant just go "erm we are the same place on the chain of command you can't tell me what to do". Just because someone is above you in the chain of command doesn't necessarily mean they can order you to do anything, if they do that they would get removed from their position. All the comments about assistants too are stupid, this doesn't at all put assistants down, it just means assistants arent untouchable when it comes to situations where a MTF CO may have to take control over a large group of people, for example a CI raid or a SCP breach where people may be ordered to avoid a location assistants cant just ignore a logical order, this doesn't affect them in any other way.

Being higher on the chain of command isn't a blank check to give orders to everyone below you, it allows you to give orders to people when acting under your jurisdiction. A great example of this is how ethics can't order A-1 directly, however A-1 cant ignore something ruled by ethics unless ordered by O5, say ethics order everyone not to shoot a breached SCP for whatever reason, despite not directly taking orders from ethics, A1 still need to respect and follow the order given.

 

[Yessir]

+Support

 

[Holland]

Hmmm Okay,

I have seen some interesting arguments and statements about this topic/ Suggestion.

It appears that there is confusion about the word "Senior cl4" and what the meaning is behind it.



Saying the UK has this us doesn't only indicate that one of the both needs to come up with IC/IG rules/policy to balance this.
Neutral

I do believe the agency manager is not in the right spot. This is a global view and we have already adapted to this in the UK we have the zone policy etc.

 

[Hypnotoad]

The point of this suggestion was to make them be Senior in both rulings and CoC, by the way. The reason may be a US issue, but it has nothing to do with ECAs/OAs like people keep saying. ECAs and OAs on US rarely if ever order LT+ around, and if they need to arrest an LT+ they are probably under SC orders (which puts them on par with SC).

I have to disagree as from what is being said, the reason they are referred as “Senior CL4” in rulings is to prevent MTF officers from having additional SR CL4 jobs, while their authority is maintained as Junior CL4. Also, your LTCOM’s and COM’s are the SR CL4’s within your regiments, why would there need to be more unlike any other hierarchy within the site.

I would also like to say how is this not going to affect assistants? From my experience some CL4 MTF Officers can do questionable things at times and carry out violations, this change in affect would make LT-MAJ basically untouchable in normal circumstances other than when SC gets involved. Also as it has been mentioned above cloak himself has commented on this exact thing previously clarifying it. Not sure why we would need this in any circumstance.

 

[Second]

I have to disagree as from what is being said, the reason they are referred as “Senior CL4” in rulings is to prevent MTF officers from having additional SR CL4 jobs, while their authority is maintained as Junior CL4. Also, your LTCOM’s and COM’s are the SR CL4’s within your regiments, why would there need to be more unlike any other hierarchy within the site.

I would also like to say how is this not going to affect assistants? From my experience some CL4 MTF Officers can do questionable things at times and carry out violations, this change in affect would make LT-MAJ basically untouchable in normal circumstances other than when SC gets involved. Also as it has been mentioned above cloak himself has commented on this exact thing previously clarifying it. Not sure why we would need this in any circumstance.

Assistants can't do anything besides report it to SA/SC/Commanders regardless if a LT-MAJ does something. This will change zero.

 

[Deftone]

I might be banned currently but I saw this and I see some people who just dont understand how chain of command works at all.

While moving MTF COs up would give them more authority than Jr CL4s they still do not have juristiction to hand out orders in their areas 99% of the time. MTF COs give out orders which affect site security, they do not give out orders to perform specific research, arrest certain people and whatever else is specifically under a single departments juristiction, all this change does is put them on the same level as Ag Managers when giving orders under their juristiction so non-combative CL4 cant just go "erm we are the same place on the chain of command you can't tell me what to do". Just because someone is above you in the chain of command doesn't necessarily mean they can order you to do anything, if they do that they would get removed from their position. All the comments about assistants too are stupid, this doesn't at all put assistants down, it just means assistants arent untouchable when it comes to situations where a MTF CO may have to take control over a large group of people, for example a CI raid or a SCP breach where people may be ordered to avoid a location assistants cant just ignore a logical order, this doesn't affect them in any other way.

Being higher on the chain of command isn't a blank check to give orders to everyone below you, it allows you to give orders to people when acting under your jurisdiction. A great example of this is how ethics can't order A-1 directly, however A-1 cant ignore something ruled by ethics unless ordered by O5, say ethics order everyone not to shoot a breached SCP for whatever reason, despite not directly taking orders from ethics, A1 still need to respect and follow the order given.

OG has spoken.

 

[Aleks.]

+support
very simple change

 

[World]

-Support